Want to refresh without breaking the bank.
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I know. I have a bunch of them. They're the only thing in my Ebay store that I won't use in my personal car.
It's just not worth the risk when there's a solution out there that completely solves the problem AND makes the engine more efficient.
I give up. Let's just let the newbies learn the hard way. Screw giving them a heads up on something that will completely take out the entire engine, turbo, and oil cooler. Just slap the cam in there, run it for 30 minutes and sit back and enjoy the 100% success rates.
Only 10 pages of results come up if you do a search on this board for 'wiped cam'
https://turbobuick.com/search/393359/?q=wiped+cam&o=relevance
..I can't remember when the last board ''crash'' was so I'm not sure how many threads are gone now.
It's just not worth the risk when there's a solution out there that completely solves the problem AND makes the engine more efficient.
I give up. Let's just let the newbies learn the hard way. Screw giving them a heads up on something that will completely take out the entire engine, turbo, and oil cooler. Just slap the cam in there, run it for 30 minutes and sit back and enjoy the 100% success rates.
Only 10 pages of results come up if you do a search on this board for 'wiped cam'
https://turbobuick.com/search/393359/?q=wiped+cam&o=relevance
..I can't remember when the last board ''crash'' was so I'm not sure how many threads are gone now.
SCOOBY DOO
BASED CANADIAN PATRIOT!!
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- Feb 18, 2007
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I have ALL my stock junk magnafluxed. I have a trusted machine shop and my builder has been building these engines since their inception. I put myself through college as an auto tech and apprenticed as an automotive machinist...so I have a bit of an advantage. Your fuel system is all important...ANY KR...and the game is up...doesn't matter what parts you're using.
forcefed3.8's
Buckeye Bullet
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- May 26, 2002
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Where would one find these good flat tappet lifters?
Do it right the first time, forged rotating assembly $1600, roller cam, heads, rockers and push rods were on the board for cheap. The stock assembly is 30 years old and if pushed could cause you a lot more to redo. Set your budget do research get a good builder and move forward,. with that said if the tune if off well you know what will happen regardless of the parts used.
juan89
Active Member
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- Oct 22, 2008
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- 199
Some blocks have a core shift on the #3 cam lifter bore. That's why some blocks handle a flat tappet cam better than others.
Also some cam blanks have the tapers on different locations. I flat tappet cam is a gamble. A roller cam can be used on another block while a flat tappet should not.
Juan
Also some cam blanks have the tapers on different locations. I flat tappet cam is a gamble. A roller cam can be used on another block while a flat tappet should not.
Juan
I have quite a few sets.
Actually it's not core shift. The final machining on #3ex is located at the wrong place. It's a result of a bad print from day one. Typically cams are ground so that 1/2 the tappets spin one direction and the other 1/2 spend the opposite (to balance out the lateral forces). Some cam grinders have found that if they grind that one ''wrong'' it helps that lobe survive a little better since it might work with the compromised location a little better.
Getting a flat tappet cam through it's 'break-in period takes a LOT of heroics and extra effort on these engines. They're just delicate as hell before the surfaces are married together and work hardened. It's not the same as sliding a Summit cam into a SBC with 65#s of seat pressure and letting it fly.
Again I call BS. Earl there are plenty of flat tappet cams still in use that are not OEM blanks. It's actually pretty simple procedure. The correct oil with zinc/zddp is about all it takes. I am sure you have heard of Richard Clark of Richard Clark's Garage. He spent a ton of money while back doing research on 1987 oil vs current. You don't live under a rock, I am sure you have seen his postings. The lifters with the hardened foot are SBC lifters, cheap readily available. I have done several and not one failure to date.
Are roller cams better? Absolutely, now you can worry about your needle bearings coming out . That's been documented on here as well. Pick your poison. Another thing some owner's dislike are the clacky lifters on top of the already sewing machine sounding engine. Plenty of threads on that here as well, stickied .
Valve spring pressure, I have used 85-90 on the seat no special soft springs broke it in no issues.
Yes roller cams make more power, are easier for the do it youselfer to install, however a flat tappet cam is still an option should the own choose to use commin sence approach.
Once again Steve, my advice is for NEWBS that don't know all the tricks and nuances and voodoo it takes. It takes a hellovalot more than just common sense.
Nobody that is new to Buick V6's, and not an expert engine builder, is going to have access to burnishing tools, and knowledge of setting spring poundage, and all the other stuff it takes to correctly set up a valve train for longevity. A roller cam costs more in USD, but it's far 'cheaper' when it comes to experience and knowledge.
Yes, I can make a flat tappet cam live all day long and have a good success rate doing it. I also have all the necessary knowledge, access to mills, lathes, seat and guide machines, burnishing tools, precision measuring equipment, valve grinders, surfacing machines, and all the other stuff it takes to build an engine right.
Yes, an engine can be halfassed with outdated technology, and the parts bill will be a little bit cheaper. But I've learned it's always cheaper to do it right than twice. ESP when you're looking at not only losing an engine, BUT a turbo (and oil cooler) as well.
Roller cams exist for a reason, and flat tappet cams come in ZERO new cars for a reason. I have no problem learning from the experience (and failures) of others. Clinging to outdated, less efficient shit just because ''it can still be done'' is not my goto standard when there's better options.
The few hundred extra dollars are cheap insurance against the cost of the turbo alone. It's damn sure cheap insurance when it can offset builder inexperience when it results in an engine that runs .vs one that eats itself.
Nobody that is new to Buick V6's, and not an expert engine builder, is going to have access to burnishing tools, and knowledge of setting spring poundage, and all the other stuff it takes to correctly set up a valve train for longevity. A roller cam costs more in USD, but it's far 'cheaper' when it comes to experience and knowledge.
Yes, I can make a flat tappet cam live all day long and have a good success rate doing it. I also have all the necessary knowledge, access to mills, lathes, seat and guide machines, burnishing tools, precision measuring equipment, valve grinders, surfacing machines, and all the other stuff it takes to build an engine right.
Yes, an engine can be halfassed with outdated technology, and the parts bill will be a little bit cheaper. But I've learned it's always cheaper to do it right than twice. ESP when you're looking at not only losing an engine, BUT a turbo (and oil cooler) as well.
Roller cams exist for a reason, and flat tappet cams come in ZERO new cars for a reason. I have no problem learning from the experience (and failures) of others. Clinging to outdated, less efficient shit just because ''it can still be done'' is not my goto standard when there's better options.
The few hundred extra dollars are cheap insurance against the cost of the turbo alone. It's damn sure cheap insurance when it can offset builder inexperience when it results in an engine that runs .vs one that eats itself.
jasjamz
THS Racer
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- Sep 30, 2004
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If a person can not afford the build to meet their goals then that persons expectations should adjust accordingly. If you have a $4000 budget it may be best for you to repair what's damaged and enjoy your 12 second car until you have $12k to build a real street/strip car. You want to avoid chances of short block failure, don't beat on a 30 year old rotating assembly. If you empty the wallet to build it, there will be nothing there to fix it WHEN something breaks.
I will not build and engine with a flat tappet cam. Its just not fair to the owner knowing the failure rate in comparison to the roller setup. If they still choose to do it good luck it wont be by me.
I will not build and engine with a flat tappet cam. Its just not fair to the owner knowing the failure rate in comparison to the roller setup. If they still choose to do it good luck it wont be by me.
ITSAV6
It's my Granny's car!
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- Nov 13, 2001
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- 2,451
If I had it to do over again I would have went with a forged crank......but I didn't wanna break the bank either. I reused my stock crank/rods but checked ok, TRW forged pistons, center billet caps,ARP main studs/rod bolts/head bolts,balanced rotating assb, roller cam,roller rockers,ported heads. I got deals on stuff, shopped wisely, bought stuff over time. Had a good machinist, put it together myself. I ended up with just over $3k I have made many 11.2x passes at 118-120 without alky or race gas just 93 pump and VP octanium. Trickest part I have is a GEN2 translator.
A freshen isn't a 10 second build at all. But $12k is excessive IMHO The more you can do yourself the more $ you can save/but if you have no mechanical skills leave it to the experts! These lil motors ain't rocket science just different from SBC stuff and attention to detail. Set your goal and budget/one will determine the other. Good luck.
A freshen isn't a 10 second build at all. But $12k is excessive IMHO The more you can do yourself the more $ you can save/but if you have no mechanical skills leave it to the experts! These lil motors ain't rocket science just different from SBC stuff and attention to detail. Set your goal and budget/one will determine the other. Good luck.
i will say this its alot easier and more likely to kill a flat tappet than a roller.roller you wont be worrying at all.im my experience on my old stock motor i used 100lb valve springs on the stock cam to run 10s ran great and for a long time but it did wear out the stock cam, caught it early because the car slowed down at the track.we did alot of investigating to find out where the power loss was but it didnt hurt anything else though.fast forward,my engine builder will not use a flat tappet and told me i had to go roller on the killer 109 he built me,that was the end of it. he told me why, some of which was discussed in this thread some of it isnt, but i can make enough power to break blocks and the roller cam is still there.i like to race and drive alot so i dont need any additional downtime or to chase my tail looking for lost power because a lobe is wearing out.on a high performance build the cam really effects the way the motor runs and the roller is the way to go,plus its a much stronger piece.high end engine builders dont want to take the chance on a flat tappet, from what i see most all use a roller.if your using a flat tappet and you have good time on it and good results more power to you i wont argue with success.
Steve v you are a very good builder but with respect to roller cam i totally agree with Earl, why go with yesterday's technology it makes no sense. If you build a motor with flat tappet cam and send it off to a customer to install and break in the motor, would the cam break in not have you concerned they broke it in right. As you know they always point the finger at the builder even when they caused the problem.
jasjamz
THS Racer
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From what i can tell he has a engine run stand for the Turbo buick v6. I agree with you 100 percent though.
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SpeedRacerX
Well-Known Member
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- Jan 20, 2014
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This is a great thread for those getting ready to go past the boltons and crack her open.
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"Steve v you are a very good builder but with respect to roller cam i totally agree with Earl, why go with yesterday's technology it makes no sense. If you build a motor with flat tappet cam and send it off to a customer to install and break in the motor, would the cam break in not have you concerned they broke it in right. As you know they always point the finger at the builder even when they caused the problem."
Did GM worry about millions of Flat Tappet motors being broken in right ?
Come on !
Did GM worry about millions of Flat Tappet motors being broken in right ?
Come on !
Mike T
Well-Known Member
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- May 3, 2013
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- 1,594
I just disassembled a motor with over a 100,000 miles on it and the factory cam looks great. Even the crown of the lifters are perfect. I guarantee you this old motor has never had zinc additive either.
Now on the other hand I have a cam and lifters that I installed with all of the proper additives /break in procedure and it had measurable lobe loss after only 10k miles.
Now on the other hand I have a cam and lifters that I installed with all of the proper additives /break in procedure and it had measurable lobe loss after only 10k miles.
Turbo89 i guess that is why GM is using roller cams now?? Come on it worked great 30 years ago however cars have come a long way in 30 years. Compare today's cars to 1986, or 1986 car, time moves on and the cars are safer, stop better, handles better and perform better.
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