What else might this be?

[turbov6joe]

Have any of you all mysteriously found your coolant resevoir tank or radiator low on fluid but did not have a blown headgasket(s) or a leaking pump/hose??? Went into the trailer today to finish waxing the TTA and found the resevoir and radiator both low on coolant....much lower than where it usually is. Odd thing is that the oil looks perfect (no milkshake), car idles smooth as glass and runs GREAT, vacume at idle is normal, no bubbles in the tank, no leaks from under the car, and has not seen any significant KR to speak of??? The car is stored in a VERY dry (20% humidity) heated trailer, could it be possible that the water in the system evaporated leaving mostly antifreeze? I'm dig'n here fellas, I hate to break open the factory seal on the headgaskets to find out that they are fine....any other ideas?

 

[FreddieWilliams]

turbov6joe,

I hate to be the barrier of bad news but sound like a worm trail leak into the combustion chamber.

I had a good friend with a similar problem. Coolant was disappearing without a trace and the car ran great on the street and at the track.
He decided to have me install a fresh set of valve springs as part of his quest for more speed. I use compressed air to hold up the valve from falling into the cylinder and also do a leak-down test at the same time. While pumping air into one of the cylinders (~5 minutes), I heard bubbles in the radiator over flow tank. At that point I realized where the coolant was going. He had a worm trail leak into the cylinder and the water was being slowly consumed in the combustion chamber. This explained why there was no milkshake in the oil or bellows of fog emitting from the tailpipes.

You should conduct a leak-down test using ~100psi from your compressor and make sure to purge each cylinder for ~ 5minutes. This will cause the radiator cap pressure to release and push air into the overflow tank if you have the same problem as my friend. In other words, be patient, it may take a few minutes to show up.

 

[turbov6joe]

I agree with ya in that I'm pretty sure it's what you mentioned, I'm just trying to explore all the different angles to avoid popping those heads off right now. I'm going to do a detailed exploration into all the things that could leak coolant and hopefully (wishfull thinking) find a small leak and be done with it. But, with the luck I have, it will be headgaskets on both sides and they won't come off the block without yanking the motor. See, I had the motor out last winter to do a timing chain and a few other things....didn't think it would be a big deal as I pulled lots of LC2's out before. WRONG....it was a HUGE PITA getting the motor to line up on the motor mounts! Me and a buddy fought that mother for litterly hours and finally got it. After that I vowed to never pull the motor unless I ABSO-F'n-LUTELY have to....and this is one of those cases I hope I don't have to. I'm not sure if the heads will come off the block while it's in the bay....the TTA's are pretty tight in there ya know. Anyone have any experiences with this they would like to share?

 

[TurboJim]

Was it warm out the last time you checked it? If the temp dropped a lot since last time, the level can vary a lot! At work we have waste oil heaters. On a 50 deg day there was like 3" to the top of the oil tank. We had a couple 70 deg days one week and the tank overflowed. I'd have never thought the level could vary so much, but it did.

Also, before pulling the motor unnecessarily, make sure things like the heater control valve etc. arent leaking a tad.

 

[turbov6joe]

Ya know Jim, you bring up a good point there! The last time I physically checked it, it was in the mid 70's or better. Last night it was in the 30's outside and ~mid 50's in the trailer with the heater going. It seems just so strange to me as the car is prolly running 100% right now, and NOTHING leads to a weeping and/or blown HG other than the disappearing coolant. I'm sure with a good compression/leak down test I'll be able to tell more.
As for something leaking, I pray that's the case. With a car of this age I would not dismiss something like you mentioned. I'm really going to inspect all possibilities before ripping into the motor. The ONE and only ONE positive/good thing a blown HG or HG's could lead to is having a ligitiment reason to take the heads over to a local guy here in KC that performs porting magic for under $500.00. I'd be willing to bet that after a "race" porting job by this guy, the car will pick up a some MPH even on a bad day! I just dread breaking the original HG seal....they will NEVER seal up like the factory could get them to. One thing for sure, RJC will be getting a call from me for one of his HG kits....I'm done messing with the graphite gaskets...too damned fragile to run fast with. If I break a crank with the steel HG's, so be it....I have 2 others that are ready to go.

 

[FlyinGN]

Yea Joe, Jim has a good point.. BUT to be sure Id do a compression check just to be sure like Freddie recommended.. My everyday driver did something for this and at one point a few years ago was usng coolant up like a quart a week. No milkshake in the oil and NOT ONE drip on the ground. Then it stopped and never came back. Its a Buick v6 too. Weird.

 

[turbov6joe]

Sometimes these motors NEVER cease to amaze me with the crazy gremlins that surface, take to hiding, and never come back!
My last car had a mysterious tick that came and went all in 1 day and never came back....still have no idea what it was???

 

[Razor]

Heads will come out with engine in place no problem. Actually even if you have studs..they'll come out.

Here ya on the motor mounts.

HTH

 

[turbov6joe]

Razor,
Any secrets, tricks, or time savers you'd like to share on this subject to keep my sanity in place?

 

[Razor]

No different than a GN. Only tip I can give is raise the car so you dont kill your back, take your time, get the heads surfaced, and use the 9441 Felpro's with the arp bolts. Dont use the washers with the bolts, and if you can, and time is not an issue, season the ARP bolts by installing them on the heads and torquing them down with the old head gaskets.. I find that retorquing hasnt been an issue with used ARP head bolts that have been stretched.

I use loctite 567 thread sealant on the bolts, tap all the holes..degrease with brake cleaner the head and block surfaces.. and take your time.

All your exhuast bolts get some high temp anti-seize from Napa, its copper colored, and dunk the threads so they will always come apart.

If I think of anything else, i'll let ya know.

 

[turbov6joe]

10-4...thanks!

 

[turbov6joe]

Razor,
What does your car's combo consist of? Your numbers looked very similiar to mine when I run pump/alky.

 

[turbov6joe]

Razor,
Just out of curiosity, why do you prefer the 9441's over the GM composites? When I had my GN I used a set of 9441's and they didn't seem to take much abuse...at least I'm pretty sure they were 9441's. Are these the HG's with the 4" bore or the smaller ones?

 

[Red Regal T]

Just put some sealant tabs in it and keep an eye on it. Probably a miniscule HG leak. Why would you do all that work if you don't have to.

 

[turbov6joe]

Trust me, I don't want to tear into it unless I absolutely have to! Your idea sounds good, but I doubt that the sealant tabs will do anything under 25 psi of boost....I'll try it though, I'll give anything a shot once....thanks!

 

[Red Regal T]

I never used those tabs personally, but I have used metallic block seal. Same idea. Anything to put off the dreaded engine pull and disassembly.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

ARP bolts

A question and a couple comments on the use of ARP head bolts.

1. Why would you not use the washers that come w/ the bolts?
The bolts have a predetermined thread engagement dimension, and removing the washers changes this. The bolts also have a large radius under the head to enhance strength. The washers have a radius to conform to the bolt.. If the washer is not used, the radius on the bolt will be forced into the head bolt hole, and can cause poor clamping force by altering the torque applied to the threads.

Comment: The use of ARP bolts and the correct method to install is spelled out in the installation instructions. They tell you to torque and re-torque to allow for initial stretch, and to use ONLY ARP lube/ sealer. If you install the heads w/ the gaskets you intend to use, and retorque as suggested, the seal will be as good as it going to get....

Back under my rock..