His car does the same thing with sticky tires,so I don't think he has a hard time believing that your car leaves good on sticky tires.Do you know why weel spin would trigger the knock sensor?
Wheel Spin Knock
- Thread starter GN HEAD
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Very good points.
You didn't give any answer other than the weelspin causes the knock. He told us that weelspin causes knock on his car in his opening sentence. Do you know why? If not, you could just say you don't know or offer a theory he could test. Do you have any theories?
Jerryl
Tall Unvaccinated Chinese Guy
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Based on your post, my understanding is that the post is 2 fold:
1. Speculation of the "cause"
2. A solution
While there were no definite "answers as to the cause", it looks like most agreed that (on the track and/or street), elimination of the spin was the key.
I searched (like you have), the archives and here is one example.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/72154-wheelspin-knock.html
As far as "speculation of the cause" ..... in my mind, the way to tell is to log: MPH, RPM, Boost, WB, timing, etc. (Nothing new right?
)Be interesting to see how the "boost" log looks during KR. Pretty sure “Powerlogger ®” is one tool that can do that.
Great to have better tools nowadays for tuning!
Anyway, I am no expert and trying to learn but was wondering myself as I see shift KR and thought I'd add my $0.02.
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I think if you have ever meet Russ Merritt you would understand he was only trying to help. He is a great guy and I know he didn't mean anything harmful or disrespectful. People ask me all the time why a lot of the guys in tech have quit posting
No ones post should be criticized, we want all members to feel free to post without being accosted. Its one thing to point out an error, which is why we post and several people share thoughts, it is another to ridicule someone for posting their thoughts. Sometimes there is more than one answer to a question, and if something else is learned in the process great.............................
Far as the wheel spin knock, it could be several reasons. How much KR are you getting, have you tried logging it with a Direct Scan or something other than a scanmaster? Does it do it with higher octane fuels?
No ones post should be criticized, we want all members to feel free to post without being accosted. Its one thing to point out an error, which is why we post and several people share thoughts, it is another to ridicule someone for posting their thoughts. Sometimes there is more than one answer to a question, and if something else is learned in the process great.............................Far as the wheel spin knock, it could be several reasons. How much KR are you getting, have you tried logging it with a Direct Scan or something other than a scanmaster? Does it do it with higher octane fuels?
Ttype6....Thank You again for helping to get my point across. Jerryl, thanks for the input also....I had posted on that archive link you showed....had problems then too. Guess it's going to come down to getting a data logger or some other more sophisticated diagnostic tool to get to the bottom of this issue.
SGRIM.... I agree completely, nobody should be criticized on here, from anyone. As far as guys in tech not posting anymore, that is too bad when we loose useful information, but if that information comes with jabs, we don't need it. I have been a member for almost 6 years and this board has been a huge help and I hope it continues to provide the useful information that has kept everyone posting.
SGRIM.... I agree completely, nobody should be criticized on here, from anyone. As far as guys in tech not posting anymore, that is too bad when we loose useful information, but if that information comes with jabs, we don't need it. I have been a member for almost 6 years and this board has been a huge help and I hope it continues to provide the useful information that has kept everyone posting.
If a person seaking advice gets called names by someone and that someone doesn't have an answer for the question or even understand what the question is,the person seeking advice might tend to not go there for advice in the future.That's sad for all of us. A person should be able to come to this comunity for advice and not be riddiculed or judged. Everyone in this comunity was totally ignorant about these cars in 1984. I know I was. I'm not now,nor have I stopped learnig,nor will I ever know everything. When a person comes to us for advice its becuase he's ignorant,just like we all used to be. On the reverse side of the coin,When someone gives advice,based on there own experience,I assume there number one goal is to help. If someone gives advice that another one of us thinks is wrong or even stupid,that's the time for diplomacy. Don't call him a liar or idiot. Simply and matter of factly offer your theory. If you get jabbed for seeking advice or giving it on Turbo Buick.com,why would you want to keep doing that. On Turbo Buicks.com I was ganged up on,and called an idiot and a liar for my offered solution to a wheelspin problem a guy was having on the street,after he installed a 2800 stall converter. After having the same problem myself and doing all the typical things to cure it,like allowing the front to rise faster and farther and creating downforce on the rear tires,and lowering the rear of the car,I was still unable to hook good on the street. This was with 26x10 Mickey Thompson Street ET bias plys,a very sticky tire.One day I decided to fill my gas tank,and that allowed me to leave with10-12 lbs.of boost without spinning the tires on the street. Needless to say,this was very exciting to me and I was prepairing to be this guys hero. Because of a simple thing like filling my gas tank I was able to go from 12.20 to 11.70 on the street. So anyway,I'm getting ready to receive my award for being this guys hero and I even had my acceptance speech written,when I was called an idiot for my offered solution of filling up the gas tank and a liar because I had some sort of magical device that could measure quarter mile performance on the street. One other thing GN HEAD,I bet you can't guess what else I was called. WHEELSPIN JUNKIE! As you did,I told them over and over how much I loved oranges and they accused me of being an apple lover. I don't know how to respond to that. Actually you can't,but I was compelled to help you get your point accross. We can't allow this kind of behavior on Turbo Buick.com,or we'll stop talking until the only people left here will be people who all think the same. When everyone thinks the same NO ONE IS THINKING.
Just wanted say that Russ is a great guy and that he as helped me out a lot. we are lucky to have someone with the knowledge he has and he has always been nice. Russ gave his opinion of what would solve the problem and don't see anything he did wrong. i agree with needing tires to control spin as my car has always knocked on wheel spin but i know my tune is good so i ignore it. hth.............Bob
Turbo1dr
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Of all the posts in this thread one person offered an in depth solution as to why wheel spin knock can occur. (post # 6)
Of all the other posts in this thread the real known cure is to get rid of wheel spin which seems to cause it. (post # 15)
So, in conclusion, those are the two best answers unless someone else can offer better advise.
Of all the posts in this thread one person offered an in depth solution as to why wheel spin knock can occur. (post # 6)
Of all the other posts in this thread the real known cure is to get rid of wheel spin which seems to cause it. (post # 15)
So, in conclusion, those are the two best answers unless someone else can offer better advise.
you can lead a horse to water but ya can't make em drink
I'd bet he is a great guy. Heck,we're all good guys untill some girl lives with us. I'd bet he loves to and has helped many people. That probably is one of the things he likes most in life. We're damned lucky to have his knowledge and advice. GN Head didn't ask for,nor did he need any advice on how to control wheelspin. In fact he explained,very clearly that he knew how to do this. He asked a very clear question. Does anyone know why a knock sensor would detect knock during wheelspin? There were three offered reasons or theories. Then he was made fun of because of the kind of tires he had on his car,and was called a wheelspin junkie. This is unacceptable in our community. We can't call each other names,or we'll be reluctant to ask and answer questions. So we call each other out when we step out of line. Since we all step out of line sometimes,we forgive one onother and get on with life.
i have been called a lot worst than a wheelspin junky....people can get so touchy on here sometimes........................................Bob
Ttype6 sorry to hear about your experience and have heard of similar problems, it sure can be frustrating some times. Thank you for your support.
Turbo1dr....you are right, SloGN had an excellent post with great information, it is more or less another theory that I had.....things just happening too quickly for the computer to react to or adjust for. Knock sensor too tight, also more good input. There have been other good views also. Different tires is a solution to the problem, but not the root cause. If you go to the Dr. and tell him that each time you raise your left arm, it hurts and he tells you to use your right arm, did it fix the problem, yes...the pain went away, did he fix the root cause, a broken arm..no. Quite possibly, the root cause is that the computer can't react quickly enough....but why doesn't every other Turbo Regal have the same problem with knock when the tires break loose? I do not want to start a fight, bitter feelings, flames, or anything else nonproductive, but this has been an issue for me for a while. Some productive inputs, were drive line related problems, motor mount rubber gone, etc., not better traction. If I tub the car and put monster Mickeys on it, or turn the boost down to where it won't spin a tire, did I fix the problem....yes, did I find the root cause for the knock sensor picking up knock when the tires break loose....no. Traction is an issue....not the cause.
Turbo1dr....you are right, SloGN had an excellent post with great information, it is more or less another theory that I had.....things just happening too quickly for the computer to react to or adjust for. Knock sensor too tight, also more good input. There have been other good views also. Different tires is a solution to the problem, but not the root cause. If you go to the Dr. and tell him that each time you raise your left arm, it hurts and he tells you to use your right arm, did it fix the problem, yes...the pain went away, did he fix the root cause, a broken arm..no. Quite possibly, the root cause is that the computer can't react quickly enough....but why doesn't every other Turbo Regal have the same problem with knock when the tires break loose? I do not want to start a fight, bitter feelings, flames, or anything else nonproductive, but this has been an issue for me for a while. Some productive inputs, were drive line related problems, motor mount rubber gone, etc., not better traction. If I tub the car and put monster Mickeys on it, or turn the boost down to where it won't spin a tire, did I fix the problem....yes, did I find the root cause for the knock sensor picking up knock when the tires break loose....no. Traction is an issue....not the cause.
With this.....the white flag is out.....the thread is no longer getting positive input on what I had originally posted and I want no harsh feelings, I've had enough... Let's end it here. Ttype6 and all others that had input that dealt with the root cause, Thank You....you are what keeps the board productive and useful.
This is exactly why i don't post here as often as i do now.
there is to much finger pointing and name calling and crap going on here and on the other buick boards to.
The way i see it is that the buick community has lost it's touch on what it was founded on. GOING FAST WITH CLASS!
SloGN.......
there is to much finger pointing and name calling and crap going on here and on the other buick boards to.
The way i see it is that the buick community has lost it's touch on what it was founded on. GOING FAST WITH CLASS!
SloGN.......
DonnieShort
Who's Next?
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Post #24 and #26 confirms the following
Reason the experienced guys don't post much anymore is the attitude that gets posted back as a result. Nobody cares anymore if you have been there done that. Used to be that when one of the experts had something to add everyone would take notice and listen to what's being said. Now days, if you don't say what someone wants to hear even if it's 100% right then look out, here comes the attitude. People are too touchy these days, and that's the reason I don't post anywhere near the way I used to. If I'm going to get my opinions shot down or " well my buddies car blah blah blah " every time I post, why bother you can figure your problem out yourself. Happens way too much but then again what do I know
Reason the experienced guys don't post much anymore is the attitude that gets posted back as a result. Nobody cares anymore if you have been there done that. Used to be that when one of the experts had something to add everyone would take notice and listen to what's being said. Now days, if you don't say what someone wants to hear even if it's 100% right then look out, here comes the attitude. People are too touchy these days, and that's the reason I don't post anywhere near the way I used to. If I'm going to get my opinions shot down or " well my buddies car blah blah blah " every time I post, why bother you can figure your problem out yourself. Happens way too much but then again what do I know
Alot of the old timers have also forgotten what it is like to be ignorant of these cars. I have posted legit (simple) questions and felt stupid from some of the responses. I mainly read and search...and I am thankful for the years of expertise that is stored and added daily in this board.
Reason the experienced guys don't post much anymore is the attitude that gets posted back as a result. Nobody cares anymore if you have been there done that. Used to be that when one of the experts had something to add everyone would take notice and listen to what's being said. Now days, if you don't say what someone wants to hear even if it's 100% right then look out, here comes the attitude. People are too touchy these days, and that's the reason I don't post anywhere near the way I used to. If I'm going to get my opinions shot down or " well my buddies car blah blah blah " every time I post, why bother you can figure your problem out yourself. Happens way too much but then again what do I know
:biggrin: hit the nail on the head
Reason the experienced guys don't post much anymore is the attitude that gets posted back as a result. Nobody cares anymore if you have been there done that. Used to be that when one of the experts had something to add everyone would take notice and listen to what's being said. Now days, if you don't say what someone wants to hear even if it's 100% right then look out, here comes the attitude. People are too touchy these days, and that's the reason I don't post anywhere near the way I used to. If I'm going to get my opinions shot down or " well my buddies car blah blah blah " every time I post, why bother you can figure your problem out yourself. Happens way too much but then again what do I know
i feel the same way.
i just smile and go on
Man,why didn't you post this earlier? Wow! Good Stuff. I also found the offered theories to be very interesting an well articulated. Since I believe this to be false knock,I tend to lean in the direction of something vibrating in the same frequency range that the knock sensor is designed to detect. I read a post about this before and don't remember where.I can't see any reason for the driveline causing this because it spins at these same rpms.whether the tires break loose or not.I say this assuming that the motor isn't being over reved. The thing that happens when the tires suddenly break loose,is a sudden and rappid increase in rpm. Have you ever experienced what happens when you suddenly increase the speed of a bad bearing,or a device that has a bad bearing. I resists as hard as it can and vibrates alot,but can be pretty well behaved at a constant speed. Even an unbalanced motor gives you this same feeling. One of the things this guy mentioned was bearings in the generator. This got me to thinking. I know what you're thinking ,and I do try to avoid this at all cost. What about the water pump,or AC compressor. Maby a slightly out of ballance drive shaft or rear brake drumms with the balancing weights nocked off. What about crankshaft end play.Possibly a bearing in the rear end.
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