who has experience with copper head gaskets, good, bad, opinions please....

[threerail]

i am looking at using copper on a serious 109 block with wire located in block, and using .042 clark copper shim gaskets with aluminum champion heads.....need to hear from some of you guys with experience running copper

will they last as long as other types for lomg term street use?
are they prone to leaks? and do you use sealer when installing, etc?
do they need to be retorqued? how often?
do i need a reciever grove in heads as well as wire o ring in block, etc

please post up any info you can, thanks in advance, never tried this before so all input is valuable

 

[Nick Micale]

First of all, you need to understand that each cylinder on a production block only has 4 bolts/studs to clamp it down, so this is a main factor in why ANY head gasket will blow rather easily under aggressive conditions.

Unless it is an extremely bad event like pre-ignition that immediately blows out the head gasket, most give up gradually. This is because detonation, or very high instantaneous cylinder pressure will lift, or deform, the head/block surface and allow a "track" to form on the gasket. Even with lesser punishment in the cylinder, it is weakened and will eventually give up.

Copper gaskets with O-ring groves in the block and head are still subjected to this situation, and will give up with too much cylinder pressure which we have seen on a few of our builds like this.

They are prone to leak, and MUST be re-torqued a regular intervals.

On a personal street/strip car I built with a production block a few years ago with copper gaskets were such a pain, they were quickly replaced.

 

[JayC]

Im on the other end of things.. I ran them for a long time and never had any issues. I only had the block o-ringed. Used the same sealant as I used with my steel shim setup and it worked great. I would get about ~2 years out of a set before they had to come off and be replaced.. usually from water seeping, not from anything else.

That being said, if its a production block and not aluminum heads, Id run the steel shims.

 

[threerail]

Jay, what sealer did you use? How much boost, did you retorque often? What failed that made them have to come off?

Thanks Nick and Jay for your input, let's hear some more stories guys, thanks

 

[Spooling]

I would get about ~2 years out of a set before they had to come off and be replaced.. usually from water seeping, not from anything else. That being said, if its a production block and not aluminum heads, Id run the steel shims.

---------------------
Curious how many years you managed to get out of your steel shim gasket set-up on a Production Block with Steel Heads - before water would start seeping on that configuration?

 

[threerail]

Another question...my block is already lockwired, my alum heads aren't receiver grooved, any other suggestions for gaskets for this?

 

[JayC]

I was using GE 1200 on the coppers. I used GE 4000 on the steels. For a long time I used GE1200 on the steels too but after a lot of trial and error and talking to a lot of people in the sealant industry, someone turned me on to GE 4000 and thats what Ive used since.

The steels run until you blow them out. My brother' engine has been together for over 10 years with steels and still doesnt leak but he didnt drive the car hard and the car has sat for a few years. It takes lot to make the steels blow.. usually when they do, its a major blowout.

 

[gnmaster2004]

Jay is that a single steel or double

 

[bison]

I've ran copper. I used the double o ring setup with the stainless wire in the block. I ran 30psi for a long time with it. The engine did use a little coolant due to seepage. I used hylomar sealant on the gaskets. The old 10.61@127.85mph thread in the time slip section was this engine with these gaskets. About 200 dyno pulls, 2 years of street action, and a lot of quarter passes. I don't see how it's possible to blow one of these setup this way without seriously damaging the engine. This is the same setup that top fuel uses to seal compression.

 

[threerail]

Is hylomar a silicone spray or more like copper coat?
Copper gaskets come with a tube of silicone for water jackets...
Has anyone used copper spray on them like many do with Cometics?

 

[JayC]

Hylomar is a "gel like" sealant. It never gets hard. The GE stuff is 100 times better,

 

[threerail]

Jay C .....Is the GE 4000 for spraying the whole gasket or is it in a tube to seal just around coolant holes? And thanks for the reply

 

[JayC]

Its a sealant. Comes in a caulking tube. Cover the whole gasket. Retorque several times before you put the rockers or headers on.

 

[threerail]

Ok, got it, basically its like Rjc steel gaskets with ge sealant put on with a small roller, except of course the gaskets copper. Its been proven to work with his gaskets, so it would work just as well for coppers probably. I think your on to something here Jay, sounds great.

Wonder what bison thinks about this idea...ya out there bison. ??
Keep posting guys, thanks

 

[bison]

Ok, got it, basically its like Rjc steel gaskets with ge sealant put on with a small roller, except of course the gaskets copper. Its been proven to work with his gaskets, so it would work just as well for coppers probably. I think your on to something here Jay, sounds great.

Wonder what bison thinks about this idea...ya out there bison. ??
Keep posting guys, thanks

The sealant ge sealant is great. The copper gasket/double o ring will seal very high cylinder pressures and transfer the hit to the bottom end . I don't use copper gaskets with the head gaskets available these days. Studs with a steel head gasket and flat surfaces will seal detonation free power into the low 9's with no problems. I've used stock, copper, double stack factory steel, RJC steel, and cometic in various thicknesses with no problems.

 

[JayC]

Ok, got it, basically its like Rjc steel gaskets with ge sealant put on with a small roller, except of course the gaskets copper. Its been proven to work with his gaskets, so it would work just as well for coppers probably. I think your on to something here Jay, sounds great.

Wonder what bison thinks about this idea...ya out there bison. ??
Keep posting guys, thanks

Im actually the one that came up with that setup. Jason started selling it later after I quit selling the sealant. Im not "on to something", I did the leg work and the testing and went through about 30 different sealants before I settled on the GE4000. Ive used the 1200 and the 4000 extensively.. Im pretty sure Ive probably got more first hand experience with it than anyone else on this forum.

I know this works. I used to run a stock block 252 bored 35 over and the only thing that would stay in it for gaskets was an o-ringed block, copper head gaskets and GE sealant. This was all the way back in 1990.

 

[kidglok]

I don't use copper gaskets with the head gaskets available these days. Studs with a steel head gasket and flat surfaces will seal detonation free power into the low 9's with no problems.

who makes a steel gasket in a .051 thickness (or thereabouts)? rjc is only available in .035

 

[threerail]

thanks guys, jay i didnt know all that history with you testing this so much, i learned alot from this so im ..on to something, lol

i wanted to run cometics on this motor but the deck has the wire, and from what i gather cometics want a flat surface only.....wont work with wire or groove where there was a wire, correct??
has anyone ran cometics over top of a wire or over the groove cut in the block with good or bad results??

 

[JayC]

thanks guys, jay i didnt know all that history with you testing this so much, i learned alot from this so im ..on to something, lol

i wanted to run cometics on this motor but the deck has the wire, and from what i gather cometics want a flat surface only.....wont work with wire or groove where there was a wire, correct??
has anyone ran cometics over top of a wire or over the groove cut in the block with good or bad results??

I wouldnt do it. If you have the steel wire, go for the coppers. SCE is making them these days Im pretty sure. You could maybe even use the steels but you shouldnt use the steels with aluminum heads.

 

[threerail]

any other gasket choices that would work with the wire in, or taken out, would composite ones work with the wire taken out, or am i completely committed to copper....
thought about decking out the wire groove but it would need.025 to .030 decked off...its already decked .010 so i might be at zero deck or less!!