WOT correction OFF with Alky?

[Mr.Spool]

thanks,i always tuned on the richer side but never approach the number 1 from a 93 only standpoint,im going to have to digest that a little.

 

[bison]

thanks,i always tuned on the richer side but never approach the number 1 from a 93 only standpoint,im going to have to digest that a little.

Add 15% to the front cylinders and 5% to the middle if you are shooting over 20gph alky and inlet temps are dipping into the 50's. Ive actually gone backwards from years past on the alky delivery. I never use more than two 10gph nozzles on one of these. It would be ok if the charge temp was up around 90* or higher but getting all that alky to vaporize is impossible at the pressures and low temps its injected against. I never calculated it out but id bet less than half vaporizes when shooting in that much. Thats not good. 135mph seems to be the point where it will start leaning out the front if its cold or over injected. Ive ran almost 138mph back when i sprayed in 25-30 gph but the outside temp was 85*+. If you want to be competitive in TAI you need to run 140mph or more and have to rely on injecting in front of the TB and some have done it so it is possible.

 

[TurboBob]

block some of the intercooler?

preheat the alky?

 

[blackgn1]

What are normal inlet temps before the alky nozzels? Mine are usually high even in cooler weather. This is with a front mount.

 

[TurboDave]

What are normal inlet temps before the alky nozzels? Mine are usually high even in cooler weather. This is with a front mount.

That, of course, depends on the IC. It's efficiency, etc. etc. What kind of temps are you seeing. I measure 10" in front of the throttle plate and seldom see temps more than 12-15* above ambient. And have never seen a temp higher than 99* during a WOT full boost run. And much closer to ambient while cruising. (CAS V2)

 

[TurboBuRick]

you wont see a thing change either in a/f or show in correction as the opening post stated , he is incorrect in his explanation but # 1 is going leaner than the rest as the alky is making the rears richer , be assured it is occuring .

it doesnt go lean on the A/F even if correction is off or on , what you see as the a/f is a combined signal of all the cylinders , the a/f will be what you either programmed to run or set the ve table to follow . , so where the rears get richer than the A/f the #1 is actually running leaner than the a/f you see ..and without the full assist of alky it has to make due with your tune almost on 93 alone
you need to run richer a/f ( with more fuel not alky) and that will keep #1 happy on fuel supply while the others have to be little richer from the alky , but you also have to treat #1 as if it has 93 only and dont get aggressive on the tune

if you have ability to add fuel to #1 (and little to #2 ) the af would be better balanced , but youll still have the octane issue as the rear get the majority of the alky so youll have to drop the timing back in the forward cylinders , how much .. thats were the crossing your fingers helps unless you have an egt on all cylinders or at least an egt to compare #1 to #6

run a safer timing and run a richer mix , watch the inlet temps and trim back the alky to keep them up while being on the watch for any sign of knock to lift but even then you may not even get a single chance at a do over

murphster was with me at the track the week before that run and when i went 133.9 he went 134 on even less timing
heres the details
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/fastest-pump-gas-alky-car.201563/page-17

You don't think correction pulling even a little fuel from cylinders that are already lean is hurting?

 

[Chuck Leeper]

I've seen one alky set up that uses individual port nozzles and a dist manifold...All commercially available.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

I've seen one alky set up that uses individual port nozzles and a dist manifold...All commercially available.

about 3 weeks ago i spoke with an ALKY guru about doing exactly that and he told me not bother and that its not worth doing.
my idea was simple come in from the back of the intake with a 3/8 pipe and a bunch of cross fittings and piping a very small nozzle to each cylinder and to still keep the up pipe nozzle for cooling the air charge coming in. i also considered a pre-intercooler nozzle go go with the in intake set up.

my idea was to use a bunch of nozzles to add up the #15 that i am using now or using the 6 nozzles in the intake to equal a #15 nozzle and a 2,3 or 4 size nozzle on the up pipe or pre-intercooler So NOT to increase the amount of ALKY JUST change how its being distributed.

 

[bison]

about 3 weeks ago i spoke with an ALKY guru about doing exactly that and he told me not bother and that its not worth doing.
my idea was simple come in from the back of the intake with a 3/8 pipe and a bunch of cross fittings and piping a very small nozzle to each cylinder and to still keep the up pipe nozzle for cooling the air charge coming in. i also considered a pre-intercooler nozzle go go with the in intake set up.

my idea was to use a bunch of nozzles to add up the #15 that i am using now or using the 6 nozzles in the intake to equal a #15 nozzle and an 2,3 or 4 size nozzle on the up pipe or pre-intercooler So to increase the amount of ALKY just change how its being distributed.

How many hp per cylinder has this guru made with 93/alky injecting in front of a dry flow intake like the 86-87 LC2?

 

[pacecarta]

You don't think correction pulling even a little fuel from cylinders that are already lean is hurting?

if its correcting its to the a/f you have set , if you set lean youll get lean , if you set richer thats what it will be

 

[pacecarta]

dave , if you put a nozzle in the intake its going to need to be on a solenoid

and i have to agree with what was said about 'you' not needing it for your goal of 10.9o

 

[TurboBuRick]

if its correcting its to the a/f you have set , if you set lean youll get lean , if you set richer thats what it will be

You can't use a afr target and expect it to correct only certain cylinders.

You said it yourself. The o2 reading is global. If the rear cans are rich and the front lean any fuel subtracted is going to hurt.

 

[Alky V6]

about 3 weeks ago i spoke with an ALKY guru about doing exactly that and he told me not bother and that its not worth doing.
my idea was simple come in from the back of the intake with a 3/8 pipe and a bunch of cross fittings and piping a very small nozzle to each cylinder and to still keep the up pipe nozzle for cooling the air charge coming in. i also considered a pre-intercooler nozzle go go with the in intake set up.

my idea was to use a bunch of nozzles to add up the #15 that i am using now or using the 6 nozzles in the intake to equal a #15 nozzle and an 2,3 or 4 size nozzle on the up pipe or pre-intercooler So to increase the amount of ALKY just change how its being distributed.

I would not bother with the nozzle in the up pipe. You'll get plenty of cooling where it counts with the individual nozzles in the intake. I port inject all my fuel and my plenum surfaces will still get cool to the touch.

 

[Alky V6]

For those that are thinking of building something, notice in the pic of my internal system, it's rather complicated looking. I know for some the first thought would be to use one simple rail that runs the length of the plenum and have nozzles shoot off the rail pointing into each port. Make sure the rail ID is large enough so not to develop a pressure drop between the supply end of the rail and the other end. My first design was like that. I made sure the ID of the rail was large. The problem with having a large ID is that it takes time for that volume to fill and begin spraying out of the nozzles. In my case, it was managable, but not the best setup.
My present system uses a small distribution manifold that distributes radially to assure equal distribution to each cylinder. The internal passages of the distribution manifold are kept as small as possible to get the fuel spraying as quick as possible after the control solenoid is opened.
The nozzles are placed at a high point in relation to the rest of the plumbing. One of the reasons is because I wanted to spray into the port where the highest velocity was present. That would be the upper portion of the port. Better atomization that way.
The second reason is so that after I primed the aux fuel system, fuel would settle in the feed tubes below the nozzles. When the system is again energized during the run, there will only be a very small air pocket close to the nozzles that will have to be purged before fuel begins to flow full bore from the nozzles. This helps me to more consistently time the cutback of the electronic injectors when the aux fuel system comes online.

 

[pacecarta]

You can't use a afr target and expect it to correct only certain cylinders.

You said it yourself. The o2 reading is global. If the rear cans are rich and the front lean any fuel subtracted is going to hurt.

they all get richer with a richer a/f target , if #1 leans a little its still rich
dont confuse leaner with lean.. two different terms

 

[Alky V6]

they all get richer with a richer a/f target , if #1 leans a little its still rich
dont confuse leaner with lean.. two different terms

When you target a richer overall a/f ratio to compensate for a few leaner running cylinders, are you finding that power might suffer because now the majority of the other cylinders are having to be run too rich for best power?

It seems to me that best overall power would be obtained if all cylinders were running at equal a/f ratios.

 

[Razor]

It is my belief that a few things are happening.

First and foremost the "target" afr. Everyone here assummes that a particular engine will produce max HP on meth injection targeting 11.0 AFR. They also assumme that their WB sensor will give correct data. And Tuning 101 is start on a richer target then move the numbers up as performance increases. I have a datalog of a 3500 lb car 281 CI running 8.70's at 163 on pump gas(93) at 9.6:1 AFR. I have datalogs on a 294V6 bowtie motor with an 88 making over 1k HP on 91 octane on twin 15's.. AFR 10.0:1.. Twin nozzle setup. So with that said...

How many have started tuning at 10:1 with a twin nozzle setup?
How many have done so using a displacement of fuel approx 20-25%?

I bet not many. I also bet the majority of problems come from someone arbitrairily cranking the meth in thinking they are fixing something and rather creating a problem. Example using a stock turbo with twin 15's... and expecting proper distribution. That is a case inpoint.

Like all things.. there are cars that have run upwards of 140 MPH on pump gas with nozzles in the up-pipe without issues. My own car just ran 153 MPH.. and stepping that up.

Scenario.. your targeting 11.0:1 afr.. cranking methanol in on twin nozzles... car goes richer.. now the ecm starts to pull fuel.. afr goes to 11.3 on the swing.. kaboooom.
Scenario.. your targeting 10.0:1.. it goes leaner on the swing to 10.3... no biggie. Want more power.. easy.. throw some more boost at it.

So 25 PSI at 11.0:1 on the edge?? Or 27 PSI at 10:1 safe? Whats your poison?

 

[Pronto]

It looks like your saying for the average 11-10 second TB, injection in the up pipe works fine.

 

[Alky V6]

Obviously, it must be enough of a problem for some that this thread was created.

 

[Robert Wilson]

So 25 PSI at 11.0:1 on the edge?? Or 27 PSI at 10:1 safe? Whats your poison?

Twin nozzle in up pipe, 10:1 AFR, 27 PSI, 18.5 timing on my set up. Been as rich as 9.7:1 AFR but car slows down. Haven't tried to lean it down.
I have seen IAT's down in the 50's to start the pass and end in the low 70's. I do have the GN1 intake with a .800" spacer versus a stock intake which may be a factor