XTSM - Extreme TSM
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Trying to eliminate Don Cruz style TSO engines from running away with the class..
How about just add 100lbs if your name ends in a "z"? Lol
. Just threw that out there. Will fix toniteforcefed3.8's
Buckeye Bullet
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Don't understand why an on center gets penalized, stage blocks in general for that matter. What you are saying is you can take the heads, cam, rotating assembly, headers, intake and turbo off your 109 and put it all in/on a stage block, and the stage block will go faster. Not going to happen, so why the weight????
I can understand weight breaks for iron heads, as the heads effect on power output, but a block is a block as far as producing power is concerned.
I can understand weight breaks for iron heads, as the heads effect on power output, but a block is a block as far as producing power is concerned.
Don't know if you saw the other thread, but the penalty is because one can push the s2 harder plus the possibility for more cubes
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What other rules will be kept?
I was wondering about the wastegate plumbed back into the DP rule.
I was wondering about the wastegate plumbed back into the DP rule.
forcefed3.8's
Buckeye Bullet
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Why the on center/ off center weights though? And 350lbs?? That is alot. The 3 bolt turbo is still going to choke the extra cubes. Could Don Cruz have pushed his 8.89 combo further with a stage block? And if so, let me in on the .2 (350 lbs) secret that would have scattered the 109.
I don't see how the 3 bolt turbo will allow anymore pushing.
I agree, I would say better reliability and more CI would be a possible reason
I bet the rules will become MUCH simpler and as far as turbo, weight, tires (maybe 28x10.5's or up to 295 drag radials or something, only speculation on my part) and a very few others. My guess would be the DP rule is a non-issue in an xtreme class. I personally would not add weight because a car has alky injection.
I can see what Jason is attempting to accomplish here. The stage blocks have an advantage due to strength at cubic inches. He is trying to give some advantage back to the 109's with less weight to increase their lifespans as well. Making a class that just as JD stated would be easy for TSE and TSL to have due to dwindling car count. So he is trying let the stage block cars compete in a field of possible 20+ cars instead of running where the final round, is the FIRST round. He also stated that can be amended at ANYTIME due to fairness. He is trying to make the class, at least in my mind as competitive as possible. If he allowed stage motors in and they dominated the class then that would run a majority of the current racers away. So he is tryin to give all the advantage to the 109's. If the rules are set and the 109 cars dominate the landscape, then you can be assured you will more than likely see a weight breaks being applied to the stage cars. I give him credit for thinking WAY outside of what is considered normal in the Buick community...
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Jason, your pm box is full
Like KFB said above, the stage engine allows more power potential. I firmly believe I could take my combo and drop it in a stage block and go faster. Heavy duty block allows for someone to push the combo even harder than someone that has a 109 block.
Most all TSO engines are on center because of strength. The extra 100 lbs would limit someone from droping a 71 turbo on that type of setup.
Jason, I applaud you for looking at a way to help TSM grow. Some thoughts to think about:
We have allowed alcohol injection in THS for three years now with no weight penalty and no alcohol car has been dominante, so why add 100 lbs to these cars?
I do think it should be allowed in one way or the other.
I think #3100 for a 109 and iron heads is to light. I know you said above you talked to iron head racers who had to add weight but were they adding 50 lbs or 250 lbs?
Big difference. You mentioned allowing more light weight parts in the rules to help people get there. My opinion is the more race car parts allowed in the class the more it will hurt the class. Seen it happen before and do not want to see it again.
Take care, Kip
We have allowed alcohol injection in THS for three years now with no weight penalty and no alcohol car has been dominante, so why add 100 lbs to these cars?
I do think it should be allowed in one way or the other.
I think #3100 for a 109 and iron heads is to light. I know you said above you talked to iron head racers who had to add weight but were they adding 50 lbs or 250 lbs?
Big difference. You mentioned allowing more light weight parts in the rules to help people get there. My opinion is the more race car parts allowed in the class the more it will hurt the class. Seen it happen before and do not want to see it again.
Take care, Kip
tom robison
ALL UP IN THEM GUTZ
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I think this is a good idea. I was all about racing Tsm this past year until I broke the block and built my stage motor. This would allow me to come back and play with some of my buddies. The only thing I have a problem with is the weight for production headed on center blocks. I think it should not matter if you have on/off center blocks with production style heads. .060 shift in a block will not make you faster. I understand you do not want the tso motors to come play, but most of the guys are alot more than a turbo away from switching to tsm if this happens. I am up in the air at the moment on what I am doing with my car as there are alot of local races happening next year that I cannot make my car fit into to easy, so possibly selling the car for a car that fits better. I am watching this to see the out come to help aid my decision.
What other rules should we keep.. I would like to see this where the only real rule is turbo, tire, weight.. I know there will be many different combos out there and I want all of them to participate together in a tight heads up field. I don't see our cars getting below 3000 or do I think we need to be above 3650 on weight. So the difference has to be made up in between those two parameters.
Couple of things that have come up and we need to make a decision on are:
Exhaust
Wastegate plumbing
Tire size
Fiberglass parts
tom robison
ALL UP IN THEM GUTZ
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Also what about the use of other factory production blocks such as the 3800 series 2 & 3 motors from the fwd cars?
Kip, you are right about no one dominating that class with alky injection. Why use/allow alky then? I know Rob W. uses alky with his stage II setup, but that is with pump gas. What happens when he puts race gas/alky and turns it up past 25 psi? I don't know what will happen with a 71 turbo but I would guess he'd be right in the mix 9.0-9.20.
I don't see where anyone would want to use alky in the class but I'm open to dropping the weight penalty for alky. If someone comes out with alky and just walks away with a race, then we can make changes to the rules. I want the racing to stay in the 9.0-9.20 range. With the 71 turbo I believe that will happen and the racing will be closer than ever.
EDIT: Lightweight parts.. I just don't see any way to keep the iron headed cars competitive unless you let them lose weight. Personal experience is that you can get a regal down to 3100 with normal parts pieces.
On center/Off center - as stated before we can always update the weights as we go. Most cars would be able to lose 100 lbs in that case.
The new 3800 block IMO would have to fall into the stage category somewhere from the info I know/see. One thing they don't have are 14 bolt heads but they do have very good flowing stock heads and stout bottom ends. (mains, webbing, etc.) I say start them at 3550 and work down.
