XTSM - Extreme TSM

[Kip]

Chad Henderson's Big Block Regal weighs 2800 with driver and still has factory power windows, 2 front seats, factory glass. Only fiberglass is hood and decklid.
.

2800 and he still has factory bumpers?????

Thanks, Kip

 

[Kip]

The weights will depend on what the racers want to see in a class. A 3100# Regal won't look like the 3600# cars they used to look like under the hood. No back seat, no inner fenders under the hood, glass bumpers front and back, glass hood and decklid. It won't be cheap that's for sure.

I agree that they will not look the same. I have said this before and will say it again the more race car type stuff let in the more TSM will suffer from lack of participation.

 

[re-evaluating]

Lookin' good

I agree with you Lonnie.

Here are what I think are more realistic weights:

3300- "8445" headed 109

3450- Alum production style head 109

3550- 3.8 Stage block any head

3650- 4.1 Stage block/ TA block any head

-100 lbs for any combo using a 67mm turbo.

Peace, Kip

Awesome work Jason thanks for listening and thinking out side the "block".

I think these are weights are looking great, I have to agree with Kip these numbers look like a great place to start.

I agree with alky no weight penalty.

I think exhaust should stay at least muffled but not a deal breaker, wastegate into exhaust not a big deal.

E85 should be considered as a fuel, it is allowed in THS as well and a lot cheaper than race fuel. I don't believe fuel is currently being policed is it?

Clint, I am guessing but I would say Kips point with not making the min weight too low as only the guys that can afford to dump a ton of cash into the car would be able to take a lot more weight off.
Keeping the class affordable for ALL current players will hopefully help keep their participation but if they all say lighter then I am OK with that.

I think most of us want to keep the cars "Going Fast With Class" not turn it into a full out gutted race car look.

With the "rules subject to change for fairness" weights can be corrected if needed.

Jason I will do what I can to support the class if it happens with in the limitations of my job. Time off isn't easy to get with this job but I will do all I am able. I am trying to find a new job every day but for now I am stuck. I did have a first interview with GE yesterday and they called me back for testing so there is hope. If I can get a different job that is conducive to time off I will make every effort to make as many as possible including Reynolds and NC event if the car is together.

Thanks Will for getting the party started.

 

[Kip]

There also should be more than a 200lb spread between aluminum 109 vs Stage.

Clint, I thought you were one of the ones in the other thread talking air flow and the 71 would be the limiting factor? We are most likely talking the same heads with the same turbo, where is all the extra power comming from on a stage 2 to need more than 200 lbs?

Thanks, Kip

 

[re-evaluating]

2800 and he still has factory bumpers?????

Thanks, Kip

Didn't those cars have just plastic bumper covers? If you removed the support behind you would never know. I could be wrong though.

 

[III'S 87 GN]

I say if a man can get his car down to 3200 and below, so be it. No one really knows how far someone could take their car down to. This may allow the car to compete other events other than Buick only. There also should be more than a 200lb spread between aluminum 109 vs Stage.

Exactly !

Pretty simple it gives the 2 or 3 iron head guys still in TSM the incentive to stay in it. Maybe today or next week they can't get to 3100 lbs but they have to start somewhere and get as close as they can so they can stay competitive.
I think they can get to 3200 fairly easy and work to get the rest if they choose.
My fat ass in the car would not get there but a guy like Tim sure could.

Most just don't understand that all other local and national events allow V6's to be 3100 lbs.

Jason made it clear with on and off center ,most TSO style stage motors are on center and that's why its there. Maybe should be changed to all stage motors weigh 3650.

 

[Mike E]

The way I see it for the iron head guys is, instead of spending money on heads, intakes, rockers, etc, they have to spend money on glass hoods, bumpers, decklids etc. The stage block cars spend the money on engine parts and can run a stock hood, bumpers etc.. I think total cost is roughly a wash for either way you do it. Speed cost money, and for any one of these combos the total spent whether it's out of pocket or sweat equity will be similar. The 109 block cars with low weights can get away with the cheaper built 8.5 10 bolt and a 200 or th350. The stage block cars will probably need a 9" and th400's because of the weight. It will be a very tough blow for anyone that spends the money on lightweight parts only for them to have weight added back at some point. Sadly I already have the lightweight parts, but I'll have to run lots of ballast to make up for it.

I like the inner fender rule for these cars. They are ugly, but it keeps the cars from looking like a race car. I like the full exhaust rule also. It really fits the street car theme. But a car shouldn't be prohibited from racing because they don't have a tailpipe.

With all the talk of alky kits, what about E85? There was a thread a while back where V6RACER said he saw no problem with it. http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/tu...m-legal-gn-makes-670rwhp-e85.html#post2791483
I would like to run it becuase it's available right down the road from my house. At the power level the 71hpq makes, a set of 160's can deliver enough e85 to support it. Is there any easy way to police pump e85 from race fuel blended e85, or does it even matter?

 

[KevinB]

On the e85 topic....my research has shown that the pump version is as good if not better than "race" versions. And that lead in the mixture actually hurts its octane rating. Go to yb.com and look up the "myths of e85" thread.


No reason to police it imo

 

[Sydwyndr]

Clint, I thought you were one of the ones in the other thread talking air flow and the 71 would be the limiting factor? We are most likely talking the same heads with the same turbo, where is all the extra power comming from on a stage 2 to need more than 200 lbs?

Thanks, Kip

I agree with 71 being the great equalizer, however, IF several stage cars run away with the new proposed class then most all of the 109's will be opposed to racing. If you keep stage blocks in check, and they aren't competitive, the rules can be adjusted to make it more competitive for the "new comers" to the class while keeping the racers that have supported the current class for a long time. The foundation of the TSM class as it were has been the stock block and Jason is really doing what he feels he needs to do for more people to have a place to race. We know that stage blocks will allow for extra cubic inches. So my thought it the availability for more CI is greater for the stage cars, therefore needs to be more than 200lb added. I would say ALL stage cars regardless of S1, S2, or TA would race at 3650. If that seems to be too heavy, then simply drop the weight as needed.

 

[Sydwyndr]

With all the talk of alky kits, what about E85? There was a thread a while back where V6RACER said he saw no problem with it. http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/tu...m-legal-gn-makes-670rwhp-e85.html#post2791483
I would like to run it becuase it's available right down the road from my house. At the power level the 71hpq makes, a set of 160's can deliver enough e85 to support it. Is there any easy way to police pump e85 from race fuel blended e85, or does it even matter?

Mike I agree, I think fuel is a non issue. Gasoline and E85 only, should also be able to run alky with no penalty.

So far this has been a very good thread with conversation. With that being said, if this ultimately gets approved then TB.com nats WILL be the first venue to show what this class is capable of, at least in the 1/8th mile.

 

[re-evaluating]

stage blocks are not all created equal

I agree with 71 being the great equalizer, however, IF several stage cars run away with the new proposed class then most all of the 109's will be opposed to racing. If you keep stage blocks in check, and they aren't competitive, the rules can be adjusted to make it more competitive for the "new comers" to the class while keeping the racers that have supported the current class for a long time. The foundation of the TSM class as it were has been the stock block and Jason is really doing what he feels he needs to do for more people to have a place to race. We know that stage blocks will allow for extra cubic inches. So my thought it the availability for more CI is greater for the stage cars, therefore needs to be more than 200lb added. I would say ALL stage cars regardless of S1, S2, or TA would race at 3650. If that seems to be too heavy, then simply drop the weight as needed.

NOT ALL stage blocks allow for extra cubic inches that would be an incorrect statement. That is why I agree with Kip the big bore motors should have some advantage over a smaller bore.

If you are using even a small bore TA block will be a lot stronger and allow it to be pushed even harder. It will also allow you to place the weight where it is needed where a stage block is heavier up front even the 3.8.

 

[Sydwyndr]

Dave so you say you disagree with all stage cars racing at 3650?? I never stated that ALL stage blocks allow for more CI. You would agree that ALL stage blocks have increased strength for reliablility correct?. I wouldn't start splitting hairs over S1 vs S2 until after the first race, then decide from there

 

[quickt]

Jason made it clear with on and off center ,most TSO style stage motors are on center and that's why its there. Maybe should be changed to all stage motors weigh 3650.

Agreed!!! At least then it would make sense

 

[re-evaluating]

weights

I agree with you Lonnie.

Here are what I think are more realistic weights:

3300- "8445" headed 109

3450- Alum production style head 109

3550- 3.8 Stage block any head

3650- 4.1 Stage block/ TA block

-100 lbs for any combo using a 67mm turbo.

Peace, Kip

I like what Kip said

or maybe make it

3250 "8445" headed 109
3400 Alum production style 109
3550 3.8 stage any head
3650 4.1 stage / TA block

 

[Team Banana]

I agree with you Lonnie.

Here are what I think are more realistics weights:

3300- "8445" headed 109 (This allows current TSM racers in this cofiguration to drop 100lbs. A 300 lbs drop in one season is unrealistic and to expensive for most to
continue on this path.)

3450- Alum production style head 109 (Again 100 lbs drop from current rules. If the real goal is a 9.0 -9.2 range class this should get more their. Rember 2 cars have
already been in the 8s at 100 lbs heavier, what happens if you drop 250 lbs off those cars?)

3550- 3.8 Stage block any head (If someone wants to run stage 2 head the turbo willlimit them anyways)

3650- 4.1 Stage block/ TA block (On heads same reason as above. Reason for TA block being grouped with 4.1 stage block is otherwise they would have to prove
cid at every race and it is a weight advantage using a lighter weight block)

-100 lbs for any combo using a 67mm turbo.

Peace, Kip

I would agree with this. We are at 3565 with probably the smallest guy in the class with 75 lbs in the trunk. It would not be worth it for us to be forced into a diet just to keep up with the class.
I keep hearing that people wanna race at local tracks light and they can take weight out at that track.

 

[BobbyBuick]

I with Kip Ronnie lonnie Dave and everyone else this looks GOOD

I would agree with this. We are at 3565 with probably the smallest guy in the class with 75 lbs in the trunk. It would not be worth it for us to be forced into a diet just to keep up with the class.
I keep hearing that people wanna race at local tracks light and they can take weight out at that track.

 

[steve hughes]

Kevin i'm planning on Kilkare next weekend. I can't be ready for tommorrow with having to work tonight.

 

[Sydwyndr]

Dave I think you almost got it. Looking at what people are saying you could lose the 100 to get the iron headed cars down to 3100 and then the weight break for any combo. Kip I understand your thinking as well and it does make sense. You see a lot more of that then I do.

3200 "8445" headed 109
3400 Alum production style 109
3550 3.8 stage any head
3650 4.1 stage / TA block

 

[V6RACER]

All right I think we have something here now..

I was typing up the new stuff when Clint took my thunder lol




I've updated the first post.

 

[V6RACER]

3200 - Iron Production head "8445" casting / 109 / 71

3400 - Aluminum (Champion Style) head / 109 / 71

3650 - All Stage I & II on/off center any head / 71


-100 lbs for 67 3-bolt turbo from any combo
+100 lbs for Alcohol injection

*Safety requirments per track tech
*Factory Stock Appearing External Body must have headlights/tailights (81-87 Regal)
*FSA glass windows
*One 3 bolt turbo up to 71.5mm inducer/103mm exducer in factory stock location (No V-band downpipes)
*No Nitrous Oxide injection
*Iron heads must be production "8445" heads
*Stock suspension /mounting points (no wheelie bars)
*Any Exhaust must exit behind firewall
*Wastegate can be open to atmosphere
*Gasoline fuel only
*Alcohol Injection +100 lbs
*70mm Throttle body/cast intake manifold
*Tires - 15" wheel Front must be 3.5" wide footprint. Rear tires up to 29.5" x 10.5"(Slick), 29.5" x 12.5" DOT (ET-Street), or up to 295 series (Drag radial)
*Any GM automatic transmission
*Any GM differential, Dana 60, or Ford 9"

MAIN RULE:*** All rules subject to change due to fairness ***


Ultimate Goal
-The 71 turbo would limit the overall power potential to keep class ET close
-The 109 weights would improve 109 longevity
-Stage rules would allow more cars to join in with minimal changes
-Allows for many different combos to be competitive