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Not sure what you guys pay for ZDDP but I have been trying to find the best prices I could. Kirbans is basically $10 a bottle plus shipping. I found Eastwood sells a 10 pack for $90 and I used a code CRAZE for free shipping! Thought I'd let you guys know! ----Jeremy

kirban 2 cents worth

Clearing the air on myths.....etc

First off, lets say for example we lowered our price to match Eastwood who by the way buythousands of bottles over a years period.from us....a month later someone else gets on this forum and says hey so and so sells it for $7 each...you can see how things would go down the road.

Yes, we are sales people heck any company in the retail business is into sales its what moves product.

I don't "jump" in to simply push this product. I jump it to clarify what it is and does. Over seven million cars 1973 and older are registered in the entire USA. Turbo Buicks is such a small minute part of the total market. We sell to hundreds of companies this particular product. We sell to the largest Studebaker companies, Corvair company Ford don't matter.

Many solutions exist.....this product is designed for the owners that want to buy the oil they have religiousily bought for years that now under the SM label only has 600-800 ppm can keep buying that readily available oil and simply add the 4 ounce bottle of zddplus to obtain the 1,800 ppm of zddp that was inthe oil when the turbo regals was new.

As for not giving back to the turbo buick owners...examine this one fact alone that Richard Clark is doing. He is the man behind the TSA CLASS for the GS Nats. This year top winner walks away with $6,400. That winner if he/she takes silver/gold in concours doubles to $12,800. Second and third etc have smaller amounts.

It gets better it doubles again next year. Meaning that $12,800 becomes $25,600 for the year 2011. For 2012 it doubles meaning just north of FORTY THOUSAND DOLLARS based on first place taking TSA race class and first place in concours.

This is way way above any other payout. Richard is also footing the bill for the free lunch at your upcoming Turbo Buick event in mid March on that Tuesday. Every year and I know this for a fact since he is in our vendor spot he fixes and works on owners powermaster brake systems for free. He is also bringing Don Garlits to the GS Nats. (No charge)

Our company is involved with many projects with Richard the latest being Miss Hurst Linda Vaughn. In closing....the amount of zddplus we retail to the Turbo Buick world is quite small compared to the 150 plus companies we sell to. The connection the product has runs deep with the Buick Turbo community because of Richards involvement and passion for the cars.

I can relate to the Corvette issues mentioned in an earlier thread, since we make several hundred Corvette parts for major Corvette companies. Quick story to show you how "weird" things can get. True story. One of our biggest Corvette accounts is Ecklers out of Florida.

As you might realize some of the parts on our Turbo Buicks are the same as the Corvette heck they are both GM cars down deep. On one particular part think it was the radiator overflow bottle our printed directions read such and such years Buick and such and such years Corvette. Would you believe several Ecklers Corvette customers called up Ecklers to "complain" they did not like to see on the simple printed directions the word Buick.....

This is on the directions that get thrown away....My point? as anyone in business can surely relate.....you can't please all the people all the time.

I can remember when we first started to market zddplus.....most car owners thought it was snake oil that issue never existed....tune sure has changed. While its true oils like Brad Penn and Royal Purple etc are good oils and will do the trick.....we live in America and you have multiple choices.....but if you want 100% to be sure you have the proper levels of zddp when your cars where new (1,800ppm) which is a lubricant Zddplus does it when mixed with any current SM oil whether it is a known brand or a unknown brand.

End of story....

denniskirban@yahoo.com

Jeremy was posting why a Buick vendor was selling ZDDP more than a regular non-supporting vendor. Everyone posts that we should support our vendors but this shows how we were getting the shaft from a vendor that we were support. Pretty pitiful. Then your replies are how ZDDP works and its better, etc, etc.

Now you come on here and state that you lowered the price equal to Eastwood which is pretty sad. Who cares about the 'Vette boards, instructions included with products, people hanging in your both.

I applaud Richard for doing this and his continued support. You are just riding his coattail making yourself look better.

Dennis how about giving something back to the Buick community????

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
 
Jeremy was posting why a Buick vendor was selling ZDDP more than a regular non-supporting vendor. Everyone posts that we should support our vendors but this shows how we were getting the shaft from a vendor that we were support. Pretty pitiful. Then your replies are how ZDDP works and its better, etc, etc.

Now you come on here and state that you lowered the price equal to Eastwood which is pretty sad. Who cares about the 'Vette boards, instructions included with products, people hanging in your both.

I applaud Richard for doing this and his continued support. You are just riding his coattail making yourself look better.

Dennis how about giving something back to the Buick community????

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com


Well put! I typed up a post a little while ago but didnt really know how to state it and not offend anyone. I would just rather pay a vendor the same price for a product rather than another company.

Personally I think Richard Clark is the man! If I had the money to produce some of the products I have thought of, I'd give them away for production costs to our members just because I love the hobby! Obviously thats not possible or practicle. But....why does our vendor charge more for a product to our members than a commercial company? Either way, ZDDP is a good product! Just give us a break. We support you! Support us too!
 
hmmm ZDDP goes in the engine oil?! Damn I've been putting a spoon full in my coffee every morning! It does taste good and my car loves it too! :cool:

Dennis since you have your paper work out, just curious.. what is the difference in the amount of zinc in STP red 4 cyl treatment and ZDDP? Up until ZDDP came out I would always add a bottle of the 4 cyl red STP to every oil change just for the zinc reason. I was going to try Brad Penn but it's not around me anywhere.
 
hmmm ZDDP goes in the engine oil?! Damn I've been putting a spoon full in my coffee every morning! It does taste good and my car loves it too! :cool:

Dennis since you have your paper work out, just curious.. what is the difference in the amount of zinc in STP red 4 cyl treatment and ZDDP? Up until ZDDP came out I would always add a bottle of the 4 cyl red STP to every oil change just for the zinc reason. I was going to try Brad Penn but it's not around me anywhere.

The tech papers I have from Richard do not show STP. You can email richard direct at richardclark@ami-media.com and he can explain it better. I do know for example the GM EOS that was popular it would take over 2 1/2 bottles to equal the concentration levels of zddp fund in the 4 ounce bottle of zddplus.

denniskirban@yahoo.com
 
Jeremy was posting why a Buick vendor was selling ZDDP more than a regular non-supporting vendor. Everyone posts that we should support our vendors but this shows how we were getting the shaft from a vendor that we were support. Pretty pitiful. Then your replies are how ZDDP works and its better, etc, etc.

Now you come on here and state that you lowered the price equal to Eastwood which is pretty sad. Who cares about the 'Vette boards, instructions included with products, people hanging in your both.

I applaud Richard for doing this and his continued support. You are just riding his coattail making yourself look better.

Dennis how about giving something back to the Buick community????

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

I am glad you appreciate what Richard has done for the Buick community. As far as what our company have done I don't understand how you fail to see the connection with selling the product and not giving back to the community. Richard Clark owns several companies and does zero in marketing zddplus he has no sales people selling the product basically their is just us and one other source that has set up the accounts.

I am not seeking credit but merely explaining that its because of sales we have generated makes it possible for Richard to award cash prizes and sponsor lunches etc that benefit Turbo Buick owners.

denniskirban@yahoo.com
 
dennis,

besides the flat tappet cams, are there any other areas affected by the low zddp oils? i understand that the zddp is a high pressure/ sacraficial lubricant but will the rings, cyl walls , oil pump gears, timing chain,etc have increased wear also. i was wondering why a zo6 would have such a high conc in the break in oil if it didnt need it. this answer may make or break the misconception that roller cammed engines dont need the additive.
 
dennis,

besides the flat tappet cams, are there any other areas affected by the low zddp oils? i understand that the zddp is a high pressure/ sacraficial lubricant but will the rings, cyl walls , oil pump gears, timing chain,etc have increased wear also. i was wondering why a zo6 would have such a high conc in the break in oil if it didnt need it. this answer may make or break the misconception that roller cammed engines dont need the additive.

To answer your question....one thing Richard has meant to do since he has some turbo buick engines that contain the original factory oil is to see what levels exist in our cars when they were new. Obviousily GM and I am sure others at least on their performance engines Corvette-GXP etc load up on zddp for break in period.

We have a testamonial from one shop that build race engines 1,000 hp and up and dyno them and take them apart have seen sufficent reduction in wear issues with roller set ups with zddplus added. Member these are high performance engines.

Grand Mom driving her non turbo 3.8 will never experience any issues since wear happens gradually. What will be interesting, is when the next category of oil hits the market and if they reduce zddp levels even more. Already you are seeing less and less V8 performance engines being made....

I put a bottle every time in all my driver cars except my wifes (hers is a 2004) and the 2006 car I have....

Richard was amazed that the Corvette had 3,000 ppm of zddp from the factory. That tells you right there they understand the importance of high levels of zddp.

Dove manufacturing out of Ohio who makes roller set ups wiped a cam a few years back at the engine challenge event...following year used zddplus and had no issues. The engine challenge contest you had to build a flat tappet engine. They recommend it. (We have a testamonial from them to back this up also).

In the scheme of things you may not need the same high levels of zddp as a flat tappet but if you are making alot of power its good insurance.

denniskirban@yahoo.com
 
what would be the recommended amount to be added during break in on a turbo buick...2-3 bottles?
 
what would be the recommended amount to be added during break in on a turbo buick...2-3 bottles?

To answer your question. Assuming you are building an engine with a flat tappet cam.

First, we now have the assembly past available based on zddplus. It has been thoroughily tested and results show it is better than any nationally advertised one on the market. According to Richard if zpaste is used and one bottle of zddplus is used no special break in oil is required.

What happens with some assembly paste is, if you let an engine sit weeks or months without starting it the paste no longer adheres to the cam etc. Our product will still remain in place.

Break in is very critical....I suggest you follow whatever directions your engine shop tells you are the instructions say to do...and add one bottle of zddplus anyhow to your normal break in procedure. Kinda of a safety net. Same advise holds true for a roller set up.

There is absolutely nothing in zddplus that was not present in the oil originally. No moly or other ingredients are present in the bottle just motor oil with the correct concentration levels of the molecule zddp. Every barrell before it is mixed is double checked by Richards staff. Richard runs a tight ship when it comes to quality control.

denniskirban@yahoo.com
 
what would be the recommended amount to be added during break in on a turbo buick...2-3 bottles?

Another comment.....

I am assuming you are using some sort of recommend break in oil besides....I can't comment on what break in oil contains what levels of zddp but most break in oils claim to have high levels of zddp for that purpose. Originally, when these issues first arose 2-3 years ago it was blamed on break in procedures and also put quality of China lifters etc......while that probably played a part it was later discovered the dropped levels of zddp was the culprit as oil was always supposed to be backwards compatible.

denniskirban@yahoo.com
 
Can you have too much ZDDP?

P.S. Richard is awesome thanks to him for all he does for the TB community!
 
Adding more than the 1,800 ppm is like overkill..does not increase the advantages.....

However, on the other side of the coin if you start with 1,400 ppm you need to realize it depletes at a faster rate for the first thousand miles of driving. Best protection is to have between 1,600 and 1,800 ppm of zddp. The molecule zddp not just zinc which is a part of the formula.

I realize some oils are advertising we have zinc....but thats only part of the equation.

denniskirban@yahoo.com
 
I am at work so I can answer one of the earlier questions intelligently...based on a testamonial concerning roller set ups.

RaceKrafters builds high performance engines up to 1,300 hp with some turning 9,500 rpms with over 1,100 lbs of open spring pressure....

They started using zddplus in their race engines equipped with solid lifters...and the results they have seen is a significant reduction in cam lobe and roller wheel scuffing.

None of there engines leave the shop without zddplus and they require their customers to use it with every oil change......

End of their quote.....

RaceKrafters is located in Lancaster, PA and has built engines for magazine articles etc.

I can only go by what companies report back to us....

denniskirban@yahoo.com
 
Here is another one from Dove Manufacturing who claim to be the largest manufacturer of aluminum roller rocker arms in the US. In a 352 Ford engine putting out 500 hp at 6,500 rpms inthe 2008 engine challenge breaking it down after 25-30 dyno pulls no wear issues were evident on the cam or lifters...

They go on to state they constantly recommend zddplus as the best insurance available for any engine in race and hi performance applications.

Keep in mind Dove makes roller set ups for other companies as well....

denniskirban@yahoo.com
 
Adding more than the 1,800 ppm is like overkill..does not increase the advantages.....

Just wondering why that new corvette oil would have contained 3,000 ppm is why I ask........and what would happen if you had more than that? Anything harmful from having too much?
 
Just wondering why that new corvette oil would have contained 3,000 ppm is why I ask........and what would happen if you had more than that? Anything harmful from having too much?

kirban 2 cents worth

we are talking about 2 different things..I thought you met normal oil changes is more than 1800 ppm too much...break in they always load up zddp because that break in oil is loaded with zddp and gets changed once everything in the engine seats/seals etc whatever..that is when it is most critical because if not damage is done so after initial break in anything you do then its already too late.

Even comp cams is pushing their special formula for break in....member cam companies don't want to be replacing cams...bad enough customers have to eat the labor involved usually if a cam wipes....not a cheap endeavor.....


denniskirban@yahoo.com
 
so in 1987 the oil had 1800 ppm...was it already on the decline then? at what point in history was the zddp the highest?
 
so in 1987 the oil had 1800 ppm...was it already on the decline then? at what point in history was the zddp the highest?

kirban

Yes to my knowledge under the SF category when our cars were new 1800 ppm of zddp was the max. Now we are on SM which came out roughly about 2 years ago. Since SF it went to SG and then SN (No SI)....

Under SF no one had issues concerning the oil. Prior to SM they dropped it down to around 1200-1300 ppm (going by memory) some owners starting have problems mostly in the british car engines took awhile before engine builders narrowed it down to the basic oil...as oil was never an issue before...this started maybe 3-4 years back. Richard actually started on this project maybe a year prior to having it produced. Had it not affected the turbo buicks doubtful he would have had it made!!!!

SM comes long and EPA etc says 600-800 ppm of zddp now performance flat tappett engines have less ppm than ever before and presto more issues pop up.

Kinda like gas member 100 proof octane? gradualism.......You can get by on 93 proof but car runs better on 100 proof.....they claim rolelr set ups don;t need such high levels of zddp and the government is not overly concerned about your pride and joy older car.

Also the theory is zddp coats the cataltytic converter and they now have 100,000 plus miles warranty from the factory....

Diesel oils go thru the same code system only they start with the letter c so those levels of zddp also are reduced....

denniskirban@yahoo.com

Dates etc are approximate...somewhere on the internet you can see an entire chart showing each s code and when they came out....usually the container changes....I of course remember oil in cans now in plastic bottles some of you remember them in the glass bottles called progress/.......
 
In no way am I knocking ZDDP or it's workings (I'm sure it works). but it's simply not the end all to the oil additive wars. I can see buying the ZDDP if one was running cheap gas station oil but A LOT of us like to use a quality oil. I know you are pushing your product and won't or don't want to admit it that there are oils out there that DO have the correct amount of additives for our turbo cars and there flat tappet cams.

Just my 0.02 worth..

Scot W.
I still cannot figure out how you guys can think this. THEY CANNOT have the required zddp in them any longer. It's FEDERAL LAW. You CAN'T PRODUCE OIL WITH 1800 PPM ANY LONGER. Those levels are ILLEGAL NOW. Illegal means against the law. Do you guys understand that? Tell me what business owner would risk a HUGE fine, that could possibly put him under once and for all, just to produce a stupid oil, for what.... 25 cars left on this planet, that are still using components that require 21 year old oil???? You're ****ting me right? It's gone guys. Give it up. Just because you read "has so and so amount of zddp" doesn't mean it's true. Do you know how many lies there are, in ingredient descriptions out there?? And all this "well my oil has been working fine for 28 years." is fine and dandy. And stock shortblocks have been into the 9's too. Does that mean it's the right way of doing things? No.
All Richard Clark did, was advertise that this is like insurance. Your car may or may not fail. But do you want to take that chance? Why do you have insurance on your car? You're not going to wreck it, right? Ok then.
How do you KNOW that so and so green oil, has the required stuff in it? Did you do your own tests on it?
When you add it up, that expensive racing oil is the same per quart, as my plain old standard issue stuff, with a bottle of zddp added in it. But the difference is, I KNOW I have the correct amount of zddp in my car. You don't. You're just HOPING, that the manufacturer has the proper amount of integrity. Which I HIGHLY doubt. I do business with many different businesses every day here, and I get let down DAILY. WITHOUT FAIL. People are just plain freakin worthless, with ZERO pride or integrity nowadays. There's no WAY I'd trust those zddp levels, when for the same money, I can buy normal oil, and with my own hands, add that zddp. THAT'S peace of mind. What's it worth? Your cam? And what else does it take with it, when a lobe fails? You got all that extra back up money saved up? Not me. I'll buy the zddp, and watch it go in with my own eyes. HOPING some high speed racing oil has the required amount, isn't worth it in my opinion. I don't base my success on hopes. I make it happen.
 
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