ZDDP Cheap

[Pablo]

There are plenty of alternatives to this product. Obviously people in the business of selling things prefer that you believe that their product is the only one capable of delivering the results you seek.
So no, no monopoly here. I can see how it's easy to end up thinking that is the case if you only use turbobuick.com for your source of automotive information.

 

[davidf]

kirban 2 cents worth

racing oils require frequent oil changes not designed for street use reason most street drive cars don't use racing oils as they lack the detergents needed....

denniskirban@yahoo.com

Thank you Dennis.

 

[TurboDave]

If I understood correctly, Pen/Val ect, racing oils do not require ZDDP additive. Why are'nt you guys just using that? I assume you all are using synthetic?

I use Brad Penn oil. Pretty green color too. Works great and has all the necessary additives for my daily driver.

 

[JOHNDEEREGN]

Guys-

Slow down here, obviously many of you guys do not know what the term MASTER DISTRIBUTOR for a product means..

My company sells about 225 different products, which of only 4 are we a master distributor.

Which means we buy direct from the manufacturer and can sell direct to dealers or we also have the ability to set up distributors that can re-sell.

Same thing Dennis is doing with ZDDP.

 

[Nick Micale]

There are plenty of alternatives to this product. Obviously people in the business of selling things prefer that you believe that their product is the only one capable of delivering the results you seek.
So no, no monopoly here. I can see how it's easy to end up thinking that is the case if you only use turbobuick.com for your source of automotive information.

Well, what would be "nice", if at least the owners who benefit from this board with FREE info and tech help, would at least support a vendor, or vendors, who help support the board.

With Eastwood, you may save a few bucks, but what price do you put on the value of the information received here?

 

[scot w.]

kirban 2 cents worth

Just figured I would spell it out......

Important thing is......nothing is simpler than adding one 4 ounce bottle of zddplus to your oil.

I happen to disagree, Having to add Nothing is simplier!! The Brad Penn / Schaffer (Both green) oil is wonderfull and has All the additives you need to protect the flat tappet cams. Dennis you also mention changing the oil more often? I think most of us usually do that anyway for better insurance. I know I change mine every 1,500-2,000 mi just to have nice freash oil in my car and I would hate to add an extra $10.00 bottle every time! That added $20-30 per year can go towards the next oil change of good oil!

In no way am I knocking ZDDP or it's workings (I'm sure it works). but it's simply not the end all to the oil additive wars. I can see buying the ZDDP if one was running cheap gas station oil but A LOT of us like to use a quality oil. I know you are pushing your product and won't or don't want to admit it that there are oils out there that DO have the correct amount of additives for our turbo cars and there flat tappet cams.

Just my 0.02 worth..

Scot W.

 

[m233roller]

WELL said Nick. Thanks

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

I use Brad Penn oil. Pretty green color too. Works great and has all the necessary additives for my daily driver.

What your honda accord??? You were so happy when you purchased it, how many miles are on it now


I actually finally happen to agree with Scott w.,... i thought i wrote you off on your comments on Jack Cotton selling Eriks car(recently diciest)

I have cases of mobil 1 non synthetic from 2000???? No flat lobe flat tappets for me. I also run 15w40 diesel oil for the high mileage motors.

There is no reason to run a supplement if you have a solution to the problem

BW

 

[03FatBoy]

X2 on Nicks comments. Well said.

 

[t-topflyer]

Simplest thing to me is using a product that already has everything in it that you need and can buy in one place without messing with shipping and just be done with it.

In the past I've used Royal Purple which can get expensive but it has enough ZDDP in it and is top notch stuff. The way I can buy it, it comes out to about the same price as buying a good synthetic oil and then adding a bottle of ZDDP to it.

Did both of these scenarios until I found that Valvoline makes a VR-1 racing oil, and I'm not talking about the stuff they make without the detergents strictly recommended for race use only. This one comes in a gray bottle and it's basically a conventional oil with enough ZDDP added to it. It's basically the same old conventional oil that was available before all the new emissions requirements that cars with flat tappet cams liked.

Comes in 20-50 and 10-30. Same price as their other products about $3-$4 a quart. I buy it by the case at O'Reily's. This to me is simple, efficient and the most cost effective especially if you drive the car on a fairly regular basis. If you don't, I would stick with a quality synthetic like the Brad Penn listed above, Royal Purple, or Mobil 1 + adding ZDDP as synthetic will stay on the parts longer and help protect against and prevent damage during cold start ups after long periods of inactivity where most of the oil leaks down and the parts become dry.

 

[Dennis Kirban]

kirban 2 cents worth

There still seems to be some confusion about zddp....

First Brad Penn is a good oil....however it does not have 1,800 ppm which is what was in the oil under the SF category when our cars were new. Look at your visor decal clearly states SF...and SF produced 1,800 ppm of zddp.

We are now into SM oil category and by law (EPA) can only contain 600-800 ppm. Quite a drop in protection.

Now take this into consideration....during the first 1,000 miles of driving....zddp depletes at a faster rate. so...if you are starting with say 1,200 ppm by the time you drive 1,000 miles ppm has really dropped and in performance applications wear can increase on extreme pressure points.

Richard was able to find out what was in the oil from GM in a new ZO6 Corvette that had a mere 400 miles on it when the owner removed it for hist first oil change....tested it had 3,000 ppm of zddp content....the Mobil One that was then put in SM category by law 600-800 ppm....quite a difference.

The bottom line is this.....

There is nothing magical in the 4 ounce bottle only the correct concentration of zddp to mix with a normal 4-6 quart oil change of any current SM oil conventional or snthetic to bring it back to were it was in 1986

Engine rebuilders are very well aware of the issues especially if they still rebuild engines using flat tappet cams.

I stand by my original statement....if you want to keep things simple and use an oil you have always used and one that is readily available in your local stores....buy it...add one bottle of zddplus and you can rest assured in a normal 4-6 quart oil capacity of having a guarenteed 1,800 ppm of zddp.....

This is especially critical if you have any type of modified engine.

I appreciate all the private pms.....

denniskirban@yahoo.com

We have over a dozen tech briefs available to back up this product. They appear on our website or you can send me your address we will be glad to send you a set of them. The toughest group of doubters I have faced is a seminar I did for a Corvette club about a year ago.

Concerning Scotts comment about the quality of oil...that is not the issue it has to do with the star burst symbol which is basically a date code....if the star burst has the SM lettering don;t matter if its Mobil One or Valvoline or Walmart oil....it can ONLY have between 600-800 ppm of zddp ....by law period....

It is a misconception if you believe that a named oil is better....than a no-name brand as far as zddp content is concerned.

Oil until last several years was always so supposed to be backwards compatible...heck I never knew or paid any attention to the star burst either and until 5-6 years ago it didn't matter...
Remember everything happens gradually....

 

[t-topflyer]

I know Dennis and Richard know this topic inside and out so maybe one of you can clarify something. The Oil Cap on the Turbo Buicks says use SF, SF/CC or SF/CD oil. The Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil I buy doesn't have the starburst symbol you refer to. Also says on it "Exceeds Engine Protection Requirements For API Services SM/SL/CD And All Preceding API Gasoline Categories". It's been about a year, but when I contacted Valvoline to verify that this oil had enough ZDDP in it to protect the engine in a Turbo Regal they assured me that it did. Do you guys have any more recent information than what is in the links below that shows this oil doesn't have enough ZDDP in it for our cars?

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/engine-tech/270324-valvoline-vr-1-20w-50-a.html

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/VR-1_Racing_Motor_Oil.pdf

 

[Dennis Kirban]

I know Dennis and Richard know this topic inside and out so maybe one of you can clarify something. The Oil Cap on the Turbo Buicks says use SF, SF/CC or SF/CD oil. The Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil I buy doesn't have the starburst symbol you refer to. Also says on it "Exceeds Engine Protection Requirements For API Services SM/SL/CD And All Preceding API Gasoline Categories". It's been about a year, but when I contacted Valvoline to verify that this oil had enough ZDDP in it to protect the engine in a Turbo Regal they assured me that it did. Have you guys determined more recently than the info in the thread below on your own that this oil doesn't have enough ZDDP in it?

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/engine-tech/270324-valvoline-vr-1-20w-50-a.html

kirban 2 cents worth

I am reading this from home and all my info is at work but here it is in a few sentences...oils designed for racing will not have a star burst symbol they are loaded with zddp but are designed to be changed frequently like every 1,000 miles and do not contain the proper detergents etc for street use...be the same as driving on the street with slicks...you could do it but its not recommended.

Garlits top fuel cars pump out 6,000 to 8,000 hp he changes the pistons and rods after 2 runs because the rods stretch....race applications are an entirely different animal.

You are correct the oil cap reads SF...and for years every time new oil was introduced zddp content did not decrease until the last 2-3 codes changes. It used to be 1,800 then dropped to like 1,200 ppm prior to SM....and some people had issues back then...when SM hit maybe 2 years ago now it dropped to 600-800 but you could still buy older SL oil...and magazines were recommending rotella diesel oil as the option....but that has stuff for soot control etc you don't wanna put in your gas engine.

Look at BMW....they had oil issues back around 2001 with the M3s....they basically insist you use their oil its a certain weight etc....price of a M3 engine I am sure most owners use what they say to use....(I owned one of these cars)

Granted it sounds hard to believe that todays oil is basically poison for flat tappet engines but it is if the star burst shows SM....its a well known fact by law SM only has 600-800 ppm....which is far less than you need in your turbo regal. The category prior to SM had approximately 1,200 ppm. Its your gamble....is it worth 9 or 10 dollars for a 4 ounce bottle to bring it back to 1,800 ppm with the current SM oil? your decision....

Member end result if richard is rite wear means metal shavings are going somewhere in your engine....

Even comp cams now has special formulas and tells you you need to put something in every oil change...some oils now claim they we have zinc...problem is its not just zinc it has to be zddp which is a molecule made up of several different parts...its all about gradualism....you can virtually look at almost any packaged candy etc today and see how packaging has shrunk or contents have shrunk and prices have GRADUALLY increased. Its been done with zddp in the oil....who knows the next category that 600-800 ppm may even be less...remember the government is not keen on keeping old cars on the road.

I am not as well versed as Richard or my notes....readers need to keep this in the back of their mind...the man that made all this happen for all of us is one of us with 100 plus turbo regals. He makes great living without selling one single bottle.

I could see some reluctance if some virtual unknown person produced the product and I was selling it.

So in review racing oils probably have enough zddp problem is they lack the other ingredients needed in every day driving.....so in one regard you got good levels of zddp how much who knows but it lacks the detergents your street drive car requires.

denniskirban@yahoo.com

 

[scot w.]

kirban 2 cents worth

There still seems to be some confusion about zddp....

First Brad Penn is a good oil....however it does not have 1,800 ppm which is what was in the oil under the SF category when our cars were new. Look at your visor decal clearly states SF...and SF produced 1,800 ppm of zddp.

We are now into SM oil category and by law (EPA) can only contain 600-800 ppm. Quite a drop in protection.

REALLY? Okay, Here is a link for those who want to see for them selves on the ZDDP levels in the Brad Penn Oil...

Quote right from there site: Looks like they are just 300 ppm away only!!

Link to see for yourself: Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oil

The Brad Penn® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils contain the higher level of anti-wear (ZDDP – zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) and enhanced film strength so critical to proper high performance engine protection. The Penn-Grade 1® oils “typical” 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P) content provide the needed anti-wear protection to critical engine parts, such as piston/cylinder walls, roller cams under heavy valve spring pressure and especially those that employ a solid “flat tappet” type system. As important as the chemistry is to the Penn-Grade 1® oils, it is by no means the whole story. The unique base oil cut used to refine the Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Oils maintain a tremendous affinity to metal surfaces. This naturally occurring “metal wetting” characteristic enables the oil to stay put on your highly stressed engines and makes the Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Oil resist slinging for an extended period of time. Also, rest assured in knowing that the Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Oils are 100% Made in the USA.

Detergents too: BRAD PENN® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils also contain highly effective detergent and dispersant additives to guarantee exceptional engine cleanliness as well as oxidation and foam inhibitors that offer protection against thermal degradation and air entrainment.

In addition to our unique base oil cut, increased concentration of “zinc” (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate a.k.a. ZDDP) provides outstanding anti-wear/anti-scuffing protection for engines employing either ‘flat tappet’ or roller cams. BRAD PENN® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils have been evaluated by a number of premiere camshaft manufacturers with tremendous success. Many are now recommending our Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils to provide outstanding protection for their ‘flat tappet’ or roller cams. < Info found right on the main home page! http://bradpennracing.com/Default.aspx



Looks like it's only 300 ppm short of the 1,800 ppm ZDDP claims to give.

SW.

 

[scot w.]

I know Dennis and Richard know this topic inside and out so maybe one of you can clarify something. The Oil Cap on the Turbo Buicks says use SF, SF/CC or SF/CD oil. The Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil I buy doesn't have the starburst symbol you refer to. Also says on it "Exceeds Engine Protection Requirements For API Services SM/SL/CD And All Preceding API Gasoline Categories". It's been about a year, but when I contacted Valvoline to verify that this oil had enough ZDDP in it to protect the engine in a Turbo Regal they assured me that it did. Do you guys have any more recent information than what is in the links below that shows this oil doesn't have enough ZDDP in it for our cars?

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/engine-tech/270324-valvoline-vr-1-20w-50-a.html

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/VR-1_Racing_Motor_Oil.pdf

I used that oil religiously for years and never had a single problem or cam issue. I switched to Brad Penn simply because I believe it has even more ZDDP/Zinc levels. and i'm yet to have an issue with this oil..

SW.

 

[GNBRETT]

Brad Penn had been my choice but I wish I could find it locally. Anyone have a good internet link to order from?

 

[510TURBO]

brad penn for me too

found it locally at vic hubbard about a mile away from my house and its 5.99 a quart:tongue:

 

[t-topflyer]

I used that oil religiously for years and never had a single problem or cam issue. I switched to Brad Penn simply because I believe it has even more ZDDP/Zinc levels. and i'm yet to have an issue with this oil..

SW.

You look to be right on....and if someone can buy it for $5.99/quart, although I don't know where to find it around me, this may be the best value out there.

I buy the Valvoline cause it's a lot easier to find and is slightly cheaper. The Valvoline VR1 has 1200 ppm or that is what I was told, which must be enough cause we've used oil with that amount in it for years before the advent of the ZDDP supplement and the Great Flat Tappet Cam Wiping Scare of the last couple years.

Not sure how to interpret the product information for the VR1 but it says Zinc/Phosphorous 0.14/0.13. I may be incorrect but I think it means 1400ppm Zinc and 1300ppm Phosphorous. That would make it almost the same level as the Brad Penn oil and it's at least $1-$2 cheaper. The Valvoline VR1 in the gray bottle is for street cars too....it is not just a racing oil that lacks the other necessary items although they do make another version that is like that called the specialty racing oil in the black bottles.....says not street legal on it.

Looks like the Valvoline comes in a synthetic now (maybe it always did and I didn't notice) available at select Auto Zones which I will switch to pending cost effectiveness.

 

[TurboDave]

What your honda accord??? You were so happy when you purchased it, how many miles are on it now




BW

No, I was referring to my 86. I call it a daily driver(even the the Honda actually is) because it get driven a LOT, when weather cooperates.

BTW, only got 26,000 on the Honda now.

 

[JOHNDEEREGN]

Some of you guys are real tight asses when it comes to protecting your car You won't think anything about spending a grand on an intercooler, or changing out an interior, but you will not spend an extra 10 bucks on an oil change..... why dont you bitch about something thats worth complaining about......