180* vs 160*

[Nick Micale]

Having to deal with ambient temps for months at a time that most of you never see, and having dealt with them for MANY years here in the desert, besides the 23 years with turbo Buicks, I would like to give my comments.

First, I certainly do not agree that running a turbo engine hotter keeps everything "tighter" and helps from blowing head gaskets.

As far as 35 psi with a TE-44 turbo, best to stay away from that guy's advise and comments, in 23 years working with these cars and knowledgeable owners around the country, never heard that!

I the summer heat, a big problem is the oil companies use a "summer blend" gasoline which is even worse than the normal crap gas they feed us.

As we all know, detonation is to be avoided for engine life with our cars, and the hotter the engine temp, the easier for detonation to happen, and the summer blend does not help.

Alum heads dissipate heat better than iron, so at the same boost level, less chance of detonation.

As far as engine life and reliability, oil also plays an important part as is does 30% of cooling the engine.

For the race cars with $20K or so in just the engine, engine oil temp is a LOT more important than cooling fluid temp. Over the years I have found that most racers want at least 140 deg. oil before a run, and would like to see it rise as little as possible. In my case I usually see under 200 deg. at the end of a run. Coolant temp would be 170-180 deg. then.

If salvageV6 runs only 140 deg. coolant temps, his oil temp should be 160-170, or maybe more depending on the length of the trip.

Some colder areas may not have sufficient heater/defroster output for cold winters, so a higher temp thermostat would be appropriate there.

 

[salvageV6]

Nick I have oil temp. in the daily driver, 160 in the winter in the 20 degree ambient range, good guess , 200 or so in the summer at highway speeds.

220 after a lot of spring/summer boosting, or a full quarter mile pass, with about 185-200 degree water temps.

Factory radiator and coolers with 160 stat. and higher capacity oil a bit with the biggie baldwin B9 filter and an added turbo filter, 6 quarts or so tops.

I have a North Face down jacket I wear in the winter good to -30 degrees, someday I'll try that 180 stat.

I like the Kenne Bell 160 stat. I put in a long long time ago.

 

[we4Mateo]

Good point on the guy being a little crazy running 35psi on a te44. I didn't factor that in. Another question has been touched on though. I've heard oil needs to get over 180* to burn off contamination. Anyone else heard what this oil temp is to burn off things? What would oil temps do in relation to coolant temps if the sidetank oil cooler/heater is removed?

 

[1qkgn]

Adding my .02

Agree with others on the TE44 running 35pis of boost = BS

The higher temp t -stats were put in by the factory for emissions reasons. Just as all the other t stats (which are higher than 180) in all the other vehicles. In fact, most states that have emissions laws treat a t-stat as an emission control device. EFE .. Cleaner burn.. hotter/thinner oil = less resistance, more mpg . . blah blah blah.

A lower temp t-stat has always been a performance mod on our cars that has been proven. Not that I am saying using a 180 T-Stat is a bad option, I would also like to see some supporting data on this. If its proven I am definitly on board for more power and less wear.

As far as a 180 being better for a turbo engine to make HP and or save gaskets is yet to be proven in my book. Now, As far as wear goes, that has been proven. Just look at all the late model engines/newer cars out there doing 200K miles.
I know from experience my engine runs between 175-185 (gauge and ECM) with a 160 and a front mount IC in it depending on ambient conditions. So I guess I'n in the "zone" .

So I would venture to say it may be the end to justify the means

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

I just went over what oil temps have to be to burn off moisture in class, and now I can't find it I thought it was a bit lower than that though.

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

Good point on the guy being a little crazy running 35psi on a te44. I didn't factor that in. Another question has been touched on though. I've heard oil needs to get over 180* to burn off contamination. Anyone else heard what this oil temp is to burn off things? What would oil temps do in relation to coolant temps if the sidetank oil cooler/heater is removed?

Found it. It's 212 degrees.

 

[Red C5]

A lot of people are under the impression that anything over 160 is bad and they stay very focused on as cool as possible. I always aim for 165-175 for normal driving in California heat. Really don't see a need for anything less than that.

 

[we4Mateo]

I was wrong, the guy is running a bb76 with iron heads @ 35psi using stock headgaskets. He still stands behind the higher tstat keeping them in tact. He has a big front mount and stated the air in needs to be cool but a hot engine makes more power with more efficient and complete combustion, which is why OEMs run them hotter. I'm not changing from my 160 yet but he was just stating his experience and I found it interesting in theory.

 

[bsdlinux]

I was wrong, the guy is running a bb76 with iron heads @ 35psi using stock headgaskets. He still stands behind the higher tstat keeping them in tact. He has a big front mount and stated the air in needs to be cool but a hot engine makes more power with more efficient and complete combustion, which is why OEMs run them hotter. I'm not changing from my 160 yet but he was just stating his experience and I found it interesting in theory.

My E-85 cars runs better with the 190* vs 160* and the catch can stays empty much longer, go figure.

 

[Ed Valvo]

On a dyno and at the track, my car always made more power when the water temps are above 180 vs 160. I do not have an oil temp gauge. The oil stays cleaner much longer as well with a hotter thermostat. As for the head gasket theory, what head bolts is he using? That sounds weird...

 

[we4Mateo]

My E-85 cars runs better with the 190* vs 160* and the catch can stays empty much longer, go figure.

With alcohol burners it really makes sense. And your statement on the catch cans would reinforce the theory that the engine tolerances are tighter at a higher temp. I'd like to see some real testing. Maybe I'll do it in the Spring after putting in the fbody rad. I'll change thermostats only.

 

[TTipe]

T Stat

I see this as very straight forward and direct.At 175 deg F I can see a 1.5 in vacuum increase over a 160 stat at about 825 rpm.At 75 deg ambient I'm seeing 21" vacuum running about 175 deg.The cylinders are all in the 160 psi range at 8.5 to 1.The better test is obviously to "leak" the motor to see sealability.I have a stock cam but everything else is worked.This may not be true for everyone depending on piston to bore clearance,ring pack type,bore parallelism,cylindricity and bore finish.

 

[we4Mateo]

I see this as very straight forward and direct.At 175 deg F I can see a 1.5 in vacuum increase over a 160 stat at about 825 rpm.At 75 deg ambient I'm seeing 21" vacuum running about 175 deg.The cylinders are all in the 160 psi range at 8.5 to 1.The better test is obviously to "leak" the motor to see sealability.I have a stock cam but everything else is worked.This may not be true for everyone depending on piston to bore clearance,ring pack type,bore parallelism,cylindricity and bore finish.

That seems like some pretty imperical evidence to me. What thermostat do you run then?

 

[HUENEMEGN]

Wow

I just got a 180 because none of the autoparts sell 160.I will have to order it. But with a 180,stock radiator,dual fans ,my car stays at 182-184. But my fans stay on tho, will this make the
Fans die earlier ?

 

[we4Mateo]

I just got a 180 because none of the autoparts sell 160.I will have to order it. But with a 180,stock radiator,dual fans ,my car stays at 182-184. But my fans stay on tho, will this make the
Fans die earlier ?

They won't last longer that's for sure. Get a TT chip and have Eric set the fan turn on to a higher temp.

 

[cruzn57]

I'd be skeptical of 35lbs boost

I was wrong, the guy is running a bb76 with iron heads @ 35psi using stock headgaskets. He still stands behind the higher tstat keeping them in tact. He has a big front mount and stated the air in needs to be cool but a hot engine makes more power with more efficient and complete combustion, which is why OEMs run them hotter. I'm not changing from my 160 yet but he was just stating his experience and I found it interesting in theory.

on stock headgaskets.
I 've never head of anyone running that much boost and repeating the run!
ask around see what the max boost on stock number of head bolts is!
now on 14head bolts, thats different story.
but you said stock head gaskets

 

[we4Mateo]

on stock headgaskets.
I 've never head of anyone running that much boost and repeating the run!
ask around see what the max boost on stock number of head bolts is!
now on 14head bolts, thats different story.
but you said stock head gaskets

He stated he had the headgasket issues you speak of until he changed tstats. That's why I started this thread. Maybe others could repeat those results but he's been racing these cars since the 90s according to him. I never saw him run but he didn't seem fos in person.

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

All my cars are WAYY slower when it's hotter...
At the track, when it starts to get hot, my car gets slower too.
And no, factories don't use 195 thermostats for power. They use them for emissions. If hotter cars are more powerful, aluminum radiators, lower t-stats, dual fans, fan override switches, and RMI-25/water wetter/royal purple would never ever sell then.
If it was that much of an issue, everyone would know about it by now, and quit using all that stuff, and leave their cooling system alone. This stuff sells for a reason.

 

[we4Mateo]

All my cars are WAYY slower when it's hotter...
At the track, when it starts to get hot, my car gets slower too.
And no, factories don't use 195 thermostats for power. They use them for emissions. If hotter cars are more powerful, aluminum radiators, lower t-stats, dual fans, fan override switches, and RMI-25/water wetter/royal purple would never ever sell then.
If it was that much of an issue, everyone would know about it by now, and quit using all that stuff, and leave their cooling system alone. This stuff sells for a reason.

No one is saying those items don't maximize horsepower. What I propose is that with tuning, a hotter car may make good power, not maximum, but live longer under the stress. A delicate balance I'm sure most would agree with. And the cooling products you speak of help modified cars more than stock ones. A stock cooling system with stock turbo and boost even at factory temp will stay cool enough, make good power, and I just read about a guy here on the boards doing just that for over 300k with stock turbo in tact. Somewhere in the NE. I might sacrifice a few ponies to extend life even @ 25psi if it really works. Pull timing and add alky and the hotter tstat would probably never even be noticed.

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

That may be true, but who's modified buick here, needs that extra 6 months of longevity, with a hotter t-stat, when we're constantly blowing our motors up anyhow lol. No one here will ever realize the full benefit, of our cars potentially lasting longer, from a hotter t-stat lol. And even if the engine can run 10 years without a hiccup, the owner won't trust it anyways, and pull it to inspect it anyhow lol. Cooler t-stats equal more power. Screw the longevity.