5" Downpipe rules

[Race Jace]

No. Please do not change what I said and post it as a direct quote as you did above. That can be misleading to people.

I agree and changed it.

I do not recall discussing this with you at BG this year. I do recall discussing this product with Mike Licht when he came up with the idea (apparently) almost a year before you, but he never produced said product. I heard nothing else of it until you sent me pictures of your prototype (after BG) and I sent you a polite e-mail stating that the product would be illegal for TSM Point Series racing as its rule clearly states 3.5" Max. AND that it would be legal for racing in BG by non-Point Series racers as the GS club's rules clearly state that Any size downpipe is legal.

I'm sure at one time or another every buick owner imagined the idea of 5" DP.



What i would like to know is since i even sent you a picture of my prototype and was inquiring of it's legality or possible legality in the future, there was not even a consideration on the new rule proposal.

TSM Point Series racers that follow the TSM Point Series are eligible for payouts from both the GS club and the TSM Point Series. If said racers use a greater-than 3.5" downpipe they are only eligible for the GS club's payout. Racers that are not in the TSM Point Series are thus only eligble for GS club payouts and can follow that club's TSM rules to the T.

Jason please recall who:

1. Campaigned to change the original TSM turbo rule from 63mm to 70mm?
2. Campaigned to change the TSM exhaust rule from 3" to 3.5"?
3. Campaigned to add the "Single drive belt" TSM rule?

IMO, I listened to that "select" racer. :smile:

[/QUOTE]

the first two where before there was TSM. these were campaigned during the inception of the rules.

the third i don't recall mentioning this. i do remember saying that we needed to address the champion alternator relocation bracket because the rule said alternator in stock location. is this what you are referring to?

As a matter of fact i really don't remember voting on any TSM rule changes. Who get's to vote?

King Dave, are you refering to the definition of FSA? Please reread and tell me what part of your distributor came from GM.

 

[top gun]

A factory stock appearing part is a GM part originally delivered on a 1981 to 1987 Buick Regal, GNX, Grand National, T-Type or Turbo Regal from Buick Motor Division and is externally stock in appearance. No external welding, cold weld epoxy, puttying, etc. may be done on any factory stock appearing part unless specifically stated.


I believe distributors were used on the N/A buick regals from 1981 to 1987 and some of the early GN's

What part of your power plate or head clamps were made by GM??

 

[Race Jace]

A factory stock appearing part is a GM part originally delivered on a 1981 to 1987 Buick Regal, GNX, Grand National, T-Type or Turbo Regal from Buick Motor Division and is externally stock in appearance. No external welding, cold weld epoxy, puttying, etc. may be done on any factory stock appearing part unless specifically stated.


I believe distributors were used on the N/A buick regals from 1981 to 1987 and some of the early GN's

What part of your power plate or head clamps were made by GM??

So you are telling me you have a stock HEI distributor in your car? or a "GM part" that was originally delivered on a regal, or is it externally stock in appearance? or your car came with a distributor originally?

if aftermarket distributors are stock appearing then stage 2 heads are stock appearing also as all buick regals came with heads.

 

[top gun]

Early N/A regals came with distributors HEI on not they came with distributors!

Now answer the question about your restrictor/power plate and your Head Clamps,what year did GM make these pieces?

We can go on forever and list aftermarket parts on these cars, turbo,intercooler,ecms,a/c no a/c etc.

You choose to only modify your car to a certain extent others build to the rules, quit flexing your muscles because you are a sponsor/ vendor to change rules in your favor.

 

[chevyII]

good point about the HEI dist....back to the TV

 

[quickt]

[/QUOTE]

the first two where before there was TSM. these were campaigned during the inception of the rules.

the third i don't recall mentioning this. i do remember saying that we needed to address the champion alternator relocation bracket because the rule said alternator in stock location. is this what you are referring to?

As a matter of fact i really don't remember voting on any TSM rule changes. Who get's to vote?

King Dave, are you refering to the definition of FSA? Please reread and tell me what part of your distributor came from GM.[/QUOTE]

The following rules were changed to accommodate you and you only. The first year of TSM who other than you had 3.5 exhaust or even a 3.5" DP?

You did complain about the alternator location being illegal with the champion bracket just before you asked for a weight break because you have AC.

The FSA rule does not apply to every single rule. Only the rules that say FSA. Dave is correct there were Regals with a dist there were turbo cars with a dist. There is no rule that says you can not use a ignition system from another year on a an 87 Turbo or that you must use stock DIS C3I on 84-87. There also no rule that says if you do you must use an FSA HEI distributor. This is not even a grey area.

 

[Race Jace]

Regals of that era also came with v8s, but that does not mean that they are allowed.

This thread is hi jacked. let's get back to the ussue.

Scott, Why wasn't the 5" Dp brought up for consideration in the 2006 rules? Lonnie stated that it was never officially submitted but according you,in your post here it was, even with pictures.

It is really no performance advantage according to Dave.

It is available to all competitors. I heard the 3.5"ers are really hard to get.

It doesn't mandate that you remove any factory parts such as A/C to install it.

Down pipes came on 81-87 regals.

Should i stop developing parts because i know that for sure there is nothing i can do to get any of my parts legal?

 

[Race Jace]

I would also like to know where this official rule discusion took place because i can't find it.

 

[Mike Licht]

It is really no performance advantage according to Dave.

It is available to all competitors. I heard the 3.5"ers are really hard to get.

It doesn't mandate that you remove any factory parts such as A/C to install it.

Jason,
while I have no real issue with the pipe I will say that you do not have downpipes that are available, only top sections. While 3.5" pipes have been in short supply that is being fixed and we did ship 6 in the last 2 weeks. When this pipe idea was proposed originally it was a flat no and the rule was amended to clearly dictate how long the larger section was near the flange
Any single or dual exhaust system allowed. Must muffle and exit in stock location. 3.5" max size, including downpipe - measured 4.0" from the flange. Downpipe must be routed down through the stock location, no flex pipe allowed.
Mike

 

[Scott231]

I would also like to know where this official rule discusion took place because i can't find it.

If you are referring to the rules discussion for the Bowling Green race, it is here http://p066.ezboard.com/fbuickgsclubofamericafrm8.showMessage?topicID=72.topic dated 7-21-2005. Note that not a single person said anything until a non-TSM racer made a comment about potential wheelbase issues two months later.

If you are referring to the TSM Point Series rules that are followed by all point series racers at all the TSM races, it is here: http://www.t6p.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8393 (I closed the thread as I would prefer to see discussions about the now final TSM Point Series rules in a thread that includes the final, not proposed rules.)

As I previously stated (on one of these boards anyway), in the past I would present the proposed TSM Point Series rules for the following year to the registered TSM point series racers via e-mail. Not wanting to appear to be "closed minded" about this, I went ahead and posted the proposed TSMPS rules on T6p.com for EVERYONE to look at and comment/question. As you can plainly see, I listened and acted as the racers requested.

Don't blame me if you don't use the internet. :biggrin:

 

[quickt]

Regals of that era also came with v8s, but that does not mean that they are allowed.

Should i stop developing parts because i know that for sure there is nothing i can do to get any of my parts legal?

Nope not allowed

Buick V6 production block casting 25526109 block only. < 250CID maximum

 

[Scott231]

Scott, Why wasn't the 5" Dp brought up for consideration in the 2006 rules? Lonnie stated that it was never officially submitted but according you,in your post here it was, even with pictures.

As I recall, you simply sent out an e-mail with pictures attached to about 30 people. I just happened to be on that list. I have no recollection of you requesting anything.

It is really no performance advantage according to Dave.

Dave has never used it, how would he know?

It is available to all competitors. I heard the 3.5"ers are really hard to get.

Multiple vendors offer the 3/5" pipes. How they make their decisions on having these readily available is not an issue. You (like many others) get the turbo availability rule improperly mixed in with other rules. Go re-read the rules and see how many times the "November 1 of the prior year" phrase appears.

It doesn't mandate that you remove any factory parts such as A/C to install it. Downpipes came on 81-87 regals.

Actually I think only the turbocharged models had downpipes. Factory stock appearing is very important in that most of the parts that one would use on a TR for racing, need to appear to be factory stock unless a specific exception is made. Yes, 86/87 TRs came with intercooler - front mounts are allowed because there is a specific exception for them. Stage 1 or 2 Buick V6 heads were never installed on a production model Buick...and there is a specific statement disallowing them.

Should i stop developing parts because i know that for sure there is nothing i can do to get any of my parts legal?

I am not going to advise you on how to run your busingess. As far as I know, everything RJC Racing sells is legal for TSM racing (with the exception of the light switch covers). And they are dam good products too!

Bamford brings up a good point. Since the power plate and the head clamps are not FSA, there should be a specific statement in the rules clarifying that they are legal. :redface:

 

[hipsi2fly]

Isn't this what you really mean?

BWWWAAAAHHHHAAAHHHHAAAHHHH- sorry that is kinda funny, no ill feelings twards anyone I don't even know, just never seen that done before.

 

[hipsi2fly]

BTW- my post about it being funny has nothing to do with ANY of the parties involved, just the gesture. Cant we all just get along?-Ryan

 

[Otto J]

BTW- my post about it being funny has nothing to do with ANY of the parties involved, just the gesture. Cant we all just get along?-Ryan

Thats alot to ask

 

[hipsi2fly]

Thats alot to ask

santa is makin his list and checkin it twice- have u been naughty or nice?
-ryan merry christmas! ooops! I mean happy holidays.....

 

[SoNice]

http://www.t6p.com/forums/showthread.php?p=87052#post87052

More info

 

[Race Jace]

Thanks Scott for your professional responses. I do not agree with some of the interpretations that you have just as you do not agree with the way i interpret the rules.

i appreciate you answering my questions.