A New Drag Anti Lag System

[HighPSI]

Gosh,... I care. I guess that doesn't count? I'm hurt that you'd say that.

Just how would you get more efficiency by spraying 500 at a 108 on a 224? That just sounds like silly talk.

Are you feeling a little threatened? You seem to be getting all fluffed up over something. Are you honestly thinking that my combination was put together to compete against a stroked motor? Really. Come on. You're giving me too much credit here. But, I do appreciate it. Thank you.

There's no way my little setup could beat a stroked Buick V6. NO WAY!

I'm not trying to say that my way is better than anyone elses. My project was a personal exercise on engine efficiency no matter what the size. In no way was it meant to compete against a class filled with stroked motors. I feel a little honored though that you feel threatened by it enough to put together a post like that.

If I am telling anyone anything with this project, it's that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Keep an open mind.

Don,
I am not upset nor do I feel threatened. That is silly talk I apologize if appears that way. It is hard to transmit your tone across a keyboard.
I appreciate your thinking outside the box and see that you are very proud of what you are doing. I havetried quite a few odd ideas in the quest for better ET's. Some worked, some didn't. What I don't understand is the significance of what you are doing. I tried reading through all your posts in the other thread and I just don't see any practical application for this. Most race classes don't allow two power adders and if they do, they don't care if you compensating for a small stroke crankshaft. You mention being on a budget, but filling that NOS bottle adds up over time, especially as much as you are hitting it with. It looks like it would be tough to use this on a pro tree without someone messing with you.
I have used big turbos on V-6's in the past and understand the challenges with a small motor. It tends to work like a light switch. Too soft and it won't 60'. Too hard and it lights them up 50-100' out when the turbo really gets to working. Your video's indicate you are having similar issues.
There is a Buick racer near me who ran 8.30's with a 210ci engine over 10 years ago. Since NOS was illegal, the only way he was able to do it was to buzz the crap out of the engine with a real high stall convertor. It appears your combination doesn't allow that. Once again, it comes down to combination.
From here on out, I will try to keep my unwanted opinions out of your thread. Please keep up the experimenting and hopefully you'll get the car to perform to YOUR expectations.

Mike,
I realize you also like to experiment. Lord knows I have offered to loan you some "main stream" parts to try for free. I don't know if you refused because you thought they wouldn't work or because you were afraid they might work :biggrin: Just because everyone is using a part doesn't make it bad. There is a hell of a lot more to going fast then just buying parts.

 

[Alky V6]

You think running mid 9s at 156 using 26#s of boost in a 3000# car with a 91mm turbo is considered skinning a cat???

Wait a minute there, Otto. If you're going to start throwing specs around, and use those specs as an example of my cars performance. I think you need to explain the situation behind that performance too. That is, if you want to keep comparisons fair.

Pro light tree
Staged, sitting at WOT and 2400 rpm.
No pre-spooling before transbrake release.
No nitrous before transbrake release.
A high 1.6s 60 foot.
I don't have the 330 ft mark specs handy, but you can take my word for it, they're ugly.

All the above, and the car still mustered a 155 mph. I guess I must be the only one that can foresee the future potential. I can tell you, the audience was awfully quiet after they saw that pass. Even the fellas that came out to help pit the car didn't know what to say. They just sat there like . I had to sharply slap the look off their faces to get them to come back to earth. I mean, heck, it was lunch time. I couldn't let them walk around through lunch looking like that.

What kind of times would all these other cars that everyone wants to compare mine too, come up with if they started the pass at 2400 rpm, no boost at the line, on a pro light? You have to give me the nitrous. Look at the turbo my small engine is trying to spool. Without the nitrous, the 91mm wouldn't spool until the 1/8 mile mark.
I'm just curious. I wonder what kind of timeslip that would produce from a class racer car?
Maybe we could do a match race. Pro light tree with the cars starting the pass from an idle. That would be interesting, wouldn't it?

I am sure you are taking Cal's post wrong,im pretty sure he does not feel threatened,your car would need to be totally gone through and another 3000-4000#s added to be legal to compete in ANY Buick class racing.

Dont take any of this as negative,I do enjoy reading wrong posts and your ideas.

Educate me. I'm not sure how I'm suppose to take it. If I took it the wrong way, then what's the right way?

Thanks, Mike.

 

[Alky V6]

I think I see the confusion.
There are some people that obviously think I started this project to either race in some restrictive class or develop parts or configurations to eventually sell. That was not my mind set. I know. In a capitalist society, all research is done with the intention of capitalizing on the work. That was the furthest thing from my mind. You guys just don't get it. I've explained myself over and over on this website in different threads and you guys just skimmed over it all and still don't get it. All you think about is, THE BOTTOM LINE. "How can I use this to market myself and make money off of this?"
Don't think I didn't realize that I would be spending a lot of money on this project with practically no chance of using this project to market my business. The intention was not to use the car to sell product.

Plain and simple. It is a research project. "A RESEARCH PROJECT".

In the early 90s, I was reading through a book about turbocharging, and there was a short section on the use of nitrous to help spool a turbo. The section claimed that the two were perfect companions. Yet, you didn't see it widely used. Why was that?

Another book talking about different fuels and claiming how methanol was the perfect performance fuel and how superior it was to gasoline. Yet, you didn't see people widely using methanol in the turbocharging world.

Then another paragraph that talked about the use of nitrous with different fuels and the fact that there wasn't much data on the use of nitrous with alcohol. I thought to myself, why the heck is that? I'm a curious bug and I really wanted to see some data on the use of nitrous and methanol.

Well. I decided to create my own data. Was I thinking about class racing? Give me a break. Do you really think that was at the top of my list?

This is a project of PURE RESEARCH. Nothing more.

Could someone take a lot of this research and build a killer turbo bbc on methanol and nitrous? I think so.
In fact, take a look at the The Nail by VW Paradise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTkuA3f7J1U

Fuel: Methanol. Electronically injected.
Turbo: Single.
Nitrous: To spool a relatively large turbo.
Intercooler: Yes. To control intake temps at 80+ psi boost.

I'm not the only one playing around with it now. Maybe they saw my research and caught the bug. Who knows.

If my research has inspired others to think outside the box and make fantastic personal discoveries, then all of this was well worth the price. I know. I know. There are still some of you out there scratching your heads, saying to yourselves, "I still don't get it".

 

[Alky V6]

Besides, If I had built the car to be a class racer, I would have hidden the nitrous system like some other 'class' racers. :biggrin:

 

[Quint]

If there is a turbo that will take a stock suspension into the mid 7s its the 91.5 I call that bad boy (THE CRANK BREAKER) when it lights off look out the radials can be a challenge especially the 275s but i enjoy the challenge..... sometimes. Quint your car has tremendous potential if I can help in any way let me know.

I like that "The Crank Breaker" Thanks Tony, I need all the assist I can get. Im going to see how 2010 looks and re work from there. I think we are close, but car isnt legal past 8.50 and I am not use to turning up the wick either .

 

[Quint]

Wait a minute there, Otto. If you're going to start throwing specs around, and use those specs as an example of my cars performance. I think you need to explain the situation behind that performance too. That is, if you want to keep comparisons fair.

Pro light tree
Staged, sitting at WOT and 2400 rpm.
No pre-spooling before transbrake release.
No nitrous before transbrake release.
A high 1.6s 60 foot.
I don't have the 330 ft mark specs handy, but you can take my word for it, they're ugly.

All the above, and the car still mustered a 155 mph. I guess I must be the only one that can foresee the future potential. I can tell you, the audience was awfully quiet after they saw that pass. Even the fellas that came out to help pit the car didn't know what to say. They just sat there like . I had to sharply slap the look off their faces to get them to come back to earth. I mean, heck, it was lunch time. I couldn't let them walk around through lunch looking like that.

What kind of times would all these other cars that everyone wants to compare mine too, come up with if they started the pass at 2400 rpm, no boost at the line, on a pro light? You have to give me the nitrous. Look at the turbo my small engine is trying to spool. Without the nitrous, the 91mm wouldn't spool until the 1/8 mile mark.
I'm just curious. I wonder what kind of timeslip that would produce from a class racer car?
Maybe we could do a match race. Pro light tree with the cars starting the pass from an idle. That would be interesting, wouldn't it?

Educate me. I'm not sure how I'm suppose to take it. If I took it the wrong way, then what's the right way?

Thanks, Mike.

Don interesting for sure. With a 1.30's 60 ft, not only is your mph higher, but your et easy 8's. I ask myself all the time, I cannot run power adders in some races out here, unless I want to get my butt handed to me. This is why, for me to keep this turbo combo, I have to turn it up and start taking money or switch. I am curious to see where i can go, since car makes great power. Only time will tell, thanks for the info as usual.:smile:

 

[Alky V6]

Don interesting for sure. With a 1.30's 60 ft, not only is your mph higher, but your et easy 8's. I ask myself all the time, I cannot run power adders in some races out here, unless I want to get my butt handed to me. This is why, for me to keep this turbo combo, I have to turn it up and start taking money or switch. I am curious to see where i can go, since car makes great power. Only time will tell, thanks for the info as usual.:smile:

See now? There's a man who has some insight.
Thanks, Quint. I hope I'm able to follow your progress with your project. Sounds interesting.

 

[kingots2004]

Besides, If I had built the car to be a class racer, I would have hidden the nitrous system like some other 'class' racers. :biggrin:

be careful don youll have guys that want to lench behind saying something like that

 

[Chevota]

Besides the original authors post it appears to be a "no win" situation in this thread. Progression is the "devil" in the Buick crowd. I staked my claim, posted video/number proof, and got out. Good luck Don.:frown:

 

[BlownV6]

Don,

Mike,
I realize you also like to experiment. Lord knows I have offered to loan you some "main stream" parts to try for free. I don't know if you refused because you thought they wouldn't work or because you were afraid they might work :biggrin: Just because everyone is using a part doesn't make it bad. There is a hell of a lot more to going fast then just buying parts.

Cal, You have no idea how much I appreciate your offer to go EFI!! There are many days I shake my head at myself not taking you up on it. Then theres the real me!! The one that cant stand to be like everyone else or run the same thing everyone eles does. I like to be different , and I love the challange of someone saying you cant do that. Everytime I go to a quick 16 race and send some 50 grand BBC home I fell a great pride and sense of accomplishment in that Im doing something very different from the norm!!

I also never forget that Barry Kempers dragster had twin turbos and all those EFI ,boost controller advantages and went 4.15 in 660' , and to my knowledge is the quickest and fastest Buick v6 on the planet My junk with power robbing supercharger , no EFI , no A/F management ,no timing retards ect has gone 4.25 in 660' and will be going faster. To me building many of the things that make this car go(they cannot be purchased , they are hand built and one of a kind parts) Is the whole drive I have. I know that sometimes im laughed at for not conforming to the norm, BUT that keeps me motivated. I also think that Don has this same drive to do something that is of his making and is DAMN proud of it!! I for one applaude his passion and openness about most all that he tries. Thanks Donnie for sharing ,and to all of you for listening. Mike

 

[bison]

I do know you can go 7.7's at over 175 with a gt4788 with ONLY 28-29 psi. with a 28 inch tire.

This is a wet dream for most. Maybe possible with a light tube chassis race car. There isnt a Buick that has gone that fast with a full weight car at those boost pressures on a v6. I doubt its possible if they run the small ex housing like TSO has to run too.

 

[bison]

Staged, sitting at WOT and 2400 rpm.
No pre-spooling before transbrake release.

All i can say to this is why? Why not go with the converter that will make this thing come out hard. No spooling before t-brake release? Why? Spool it and let it rip. If you staged and left at 5600+ at WOT you would probably knock a half second off your e.t. For the record i am a huge fan of N2O for spoolup. I have experienced the effects of it. You have tremendous potential on the hot side with that turbo vs. TSO. You will probably need to be at 45-50psi to see it though. Just my opinions.

 

[Alky V6]

All i can say to this is why? Why not go with the converter that will make this thing come out hard. No spooling before t-brake release? Why? Spool it and let it rip. If you staged and left at 5600+ at WOT you would probably knock a half second off your e.t. For the record i am a huge fan of N2O for spoolup. I have experienced the effects of it. You have tremendous potential on the hot side with that turbo vs. TSO. You will probably need to be at 45-50psi to see it though. Just my opinions.

Why? Those are fair questions. Without knowing where I was with the progress of my tuning with the car, I can understand why you would wonder what the heck I was doing. I'll go ahead and answer your questions.

In September I took the car to the Bakersfield Pinks All Out. I was notified that I was selected to try out for the event two weeks before the date of the event. At that time I had just finished doing some initial testing of the quick spool valve I had just finished. I was getting to a point where I was feeling comfortable with where the fuel table was, and had started to work on a launch tuneup for a sportsman tree using the quick spool valve.
The sportsman tree launch tuneup involved timing the nitrous and transbrake delays, the nitrous turn off point, the boost curve for the AMS1000, and the quick spool valve timing control. I had only gotten little work done on that tuneup up to that point.
As I remember it, there were no dates at the local track to do any testing before I had to go to Bakersfield, and I had never had the car to a 1/4 mile track with the 91mm yet.

cont.

 

[Alky V6]

The start at Pinks All Out is an arm drop. That basically means a pro tree. I had done absolutely no work on a pro tree start with the car, and I was a long ways from reaching the point where I would.
I decided that I would just zero out all the timers, do a simple timer on the quick spool valve, and use the boost curve that I had worked out for the boost controller up to that point.

The first quarter mile run down the track for the car with the 91mm would be at Bakersfield Pinks All Out with an untried test tuneup.

At Pinks All Out they bracket you with others that run close to the same ET for testing and qualifying. They asked at the entrance booth what ET my car ran. Yikes . I had never run the car down the quarter with the 91mm. I took a wild guess and picked the 9.50 to 10.00 bracket.

The first pass down the track was with the nitrous solenoids stuck closed due to high pressure because of a hot nitrous bottle. The outside temp that day was 100 F. That pass was a disaster.
After I figured out that the solenoids weren't working because of the pressure being too high, first time I had ever experienced that, we draped a wet towel over the bottle and cooled it down for the next run. That next run was pretty amazing. It was a 9.56. It's the same 1/4 mi. time I have in my sig.

No matter what the start looked like, I had achieved the goal of the day.

 

[86brick]

Don,

It seems to me like you are having fun with YOUR car and that is what is most important! Obviously as you have stated, you are not looking to set the world on fire in some class like TSO or chase any kind of numbers with YOUR car. You stated you didn't build it to run with the intention of going this fast because you were originally running an old school T76 with goals of 750hp so it seems to me that you have more than exceeded YOUR expectations with YOUR car! From reading some of what you have posted, I think more than anything that you enjoy testing and experimenting different ideas with YOUR car and trying to apply them to make the car go faster. Bottom line, I say do what makes YOU happy because after all, it is YOUR car!

I think everybody in this thread has/had good intentions and is only trying to share their experience from running their cars and trying different things over the years, but sometimes people like to walk outside the line. Personally I see no harm in someone being different with their car and I actually give them credit for trying because it's always easier to just pick up the phone and call a guy that has done it before! It's good to know that others on here are willing to try and help others go faster and personally I think it makes it a lot easier, however, sometimes people want a challenge!!!

 

[Alky V6]

It's good to see that there are others with a strong sense of adventurism. Carry the torch high, fellas.

 

[bison]

Why? Those are fair questions. Without knowing where I was with the progress of my tuning with the car, I can understand why you would wonder what the heck I was doing. I'll go ahead and answer your questions.

In September I took the car to the Bakersfield Pinks All Out. I was notified that I was selected to try out for the event two weeks before the date of the event. At that time I had just finished doing some initial testing of the quick spool valve I had just finished. I was getting to a point where I was feeling comfortable with where the fuel table was, and had started to work on a launch tuneup for a sportsman tree using the quick spool valve.
The sportsman tree launch tuneup involved timing the nitrous and transbrake delays, the nitrous turn off point, the boost curve for the AMS1000, and the quick spool valve timing control. I had only gotten little work done on that tuneup up to that point.
As I remember it, there were no dates at the local track to do any testing before I had to go to Bakersfield, and I had never had the car to a 1/4 mile track with the 91mm yet.

cont.

All that aside with the t-brake out of the picture id still be using a much different converter than that one if i was running at Pinks.

 

[Alky V6]

All that aside with the t-brake out of the picture id still be using a much different converter than that one if i was running at Pinks.

Maybe you're not familiar with Pinks All Out, or maybe you don't do much bracket racing.
To review what I've already posted;

I only had a 2 week notice before the event.

There were no local track dates available before the event for any type of testing.

I was still performing testing on a new quick spool valve. And, if I were to change the stall speed of the TC, I would surely wait until I had some data on how the quick spool valve might change the stall change requirement.

The event has you choose a bracket that you think your car will run consistently in, and I had a much better feel for what the car would do with the present TC. As it was, this event was going to be the first time down the 1/4 mile with a new turbo, quick spool valve, boost controller, suspension and tire size. I think that throwing a different TC into that mix, without a chance for any prior testing before the event, would have been absolutely foolish. I was very lucky as it was that I missed the lower et limit for the bracket that I chose, by only .06 second.

Do you truly think it would have been wise to throw a large unknown like a different TC into the above situation with hopes that it would have turned out any better than it did?

 

[Alky V6]

Wait a minute there, Otto. If you're going to start throwing specs around, and use those specs as an example of my cars performance. I think you need to explain the situation behind that performance too. That is, if you want to keep comparisons fair.

Pro light tree
Staged, sitting at WOT and 2400 rpm.
No pre-spooling before transbrake release.
No nitrous before transbrake release.
A high 1.6s 60 foot.
I don't have the 330 ft mark specs handy, but you can take my word for it, they're ugly.

All the above, and the car still mustered a 155 mph. I guess I must be the only one that can foresee the future potential. I can tell you, the audience was awfully quiet after they saw that pass. Even the fellas that came out to help pit the car didn't know what to say. They just sat there like . I had to sharply slap the look off their faces to get them to come back to earth. I mean, heck, it was lunch time. I couldn't let them walk around through lunch looking like that.

What kind of times would all these other cars that everyone wants to compare mine too, come up with if they started the pass at 2400 rpm, no boost at the line, on a pro light? You have to give me the nitrous. Look at the turbo my small engine is trying to spool. Without the nitrous, the 91mm wouldn't spool until the 1/8 mile mark.
I'm just curious. I wonder what kind of timeslip that would produce from a class racer car?
Maybe we could do a match race. Pro light tree with the cars starting the pass from an idle. That would be interesting, wouldn't it?

No takers on that match race?

No one's curious?

 

[Otto J]

No takers on that match race?

No one's curious?

I think no one would waste their time racing their car in a manner its not designed.
You are designing your car that way.