Looks/sounds great. My concern is that it appears there is much to be gained from the point of t-brake release to sustained boost.... unless you have it programmed that way for traction purposes. The term "anti-lag" brings thoughts of popping/banging/ and fire to my head. I don't hear any of that in your video...
Advancement of fuel delivery?
- Thread starter Alky V6
- Start date
The first test in the video was with .7 sec of nitrous before transbrake release. The test after that one was with .8 sec of nitrous. There was a slight improvement. The next test will be .910 sec at the track. That will be the time from the first amber on a sportsman tree to transbrake release.
There's also some tweaking to be done to the fuel map to help the initial rpm rise.
That's the beauty of how this setup works. A stable, continuous burn that's not hard on the machinery, except for the added heat to the exhaust valves, headers and the turbine. The system is evidenced by the primary pipes having turned a darker color from the added heat.
The classic als where you get the popping and banging relies on an oxygen supply from cutting the ignition on random cylinders. That gives you a very erratic oxygen supply and ends up giving you a very erratic ignition of the fuel in the exhaust system. With this nitrous/methanol als, the fuel and oxygen supply passes through the cylinder on every cycle in the form of unburned methanol and un-dissociated nitrous oxide that made it through the combustion process. The extra fuel and nitrous dissociates in the exhaust pipe where it is lit off, and the remainder of the 300 hp shot energy is recovered in the form of helping to spool the the massive 91mm turbo.
The system is still being developed, but the advantages of a system like this is absolutely undeniable. :biggrin:
edit: The real interesting part about this is that the spool valve was not used in any of these tests.
There is plenty of potential still sitting in the wings. :biggrin:
Let's not forget about the affect of egr. With higher exhaust temps brought about by the n/m als, that means that any egr that occurs will further help to dissociate the incoming nitrous and methanol so that more of it is consumed during the combustion process.
With the latest changes to the tuneup and the T/C stator, and no use of the spool assist valve, the transition point has moved from 3,600-3,800 rpm / 98-100 kPa, to 5,000-5,200 rpm / 105-117 kPa. The transition point being the point in the rpm rise at initial launch where the engine lulls for a moment waiting for manifold boost to catch up.
You can hear the transition point in the recent video link I posted. At about 6 to 10 feet after the launch you can see and hear the engine go flat for a moment.
Right after launch, the engine revs to over 5,200 rpm, then falls back to just over 5,000 rpm where boost rise catches up and continues to build to a point where it's high enough to let the engine rpm continue to climb at an acceptable rate.
You can hear the transition point in the recent video link I posted. At about 6 to 10 feet after the launch you can see and hear the engine go flat for a moment.
Right after launch, the engine revs to over 5,200 rpm, then falls back to just over 5,000 rpm where boost rise catches up and continues to build to a point where it's high enough to let the engine rpm continue to climb at an acceptable rate.
I looked up that first als test datalog and the exact rpm and map readings during the transition are 5207 rpm @ 112 kPa right after launch, dropping to 5146 rpm @ 120.6 kPa. When the map then reached 124.3 kPa @ 5163 rpm the rpm continued on at a steep climb.
Here is a blow by blow of the first als datalog (video). After studying it more carefully I came to some very interesting conclusions.
Timestamp, rpm, map, notes
0.0, 2625, 97.2, The engine is at WOT on the converter just before nitrous activation.
0.56, 3881, 102.1, The nitrous has pushed the stall speed to this level with the O2s reading flatline, bottom rich. It is just after this point that the O2 starts to head for a lean signal. This must be the point that the als lights off.
.700, 4060, 102.1, Transbrake is released.
1.30, 5207, 112.0, The rpm rises to this point and starts to slightly drop. I believe that the als has pushed the rpm to this point, but the map is still not high enough at this rpm level to keep the rate of rpm rise up. In past datalogs 5250 rpm always seemed to coincide with 125 kPa map.
1.56, 5163, 124.3, This is the end of the transition point. Just after this point the rpm again starts to climb.
1.84, 5815, 140.3, Just after this point the rpm rise slows.
2.16, 6296, 168.6, At this point the rpm rise picks back up. Between the 1.84 timestamp and this point (2.16), the als collapses. It is evidenced by the O2 reading taking a nose dive from 14.64 to 10.12:1. It explains why the rpm rise slowed between these two points. It also corresponds with 'the wall'. A sure sign that 'the wall' is in need of more leaning. After the rpm and map passed the wall, the rpm climb picked back up. This corresponded with the O2 signal shooting back up to a lean signal. A sign that the als system was down for a moment, but was not out. The als system would continue on until the nitrous system was finally turned off at 200 kPa. This test run was cut short at 176 kPa.
So, if I activated the nitrous for 1.56 sec before transbrake release...?
Timestamp, rpm, map, notes
0.0, 2625, 97.2, The engine is at WOT on the converter just before nitrous activation.
0.56, 3881, 102.1, The nitrous has pushed the stall speed to this level with the O2s reading flatline, bottom rich. It is just after this point that the O2 starts to head for a lean signal. This must be the point that the als lights off.
.700, 4060, 102.1, Transbrake is released.
1.30, 5207, 112.0, The rpm rises to this point and starts to slightly drop. I believe that the als has pushed the rpm to this point, but the map is still not high enough at this rpm level to keep the rate of rpm rise up. In past datalogs 5250 rpm always seemed to coincide with 125 kPa map.
1.56, 5163, 124.3, This is the end of the transition point. Just after this point the rpm again starts to climb.
1.84, 5815, 140.3, Just after this point the rpm rise slows.
2.16, 6296, 168.6, At this point the rpm rise picks back up. Between the 1.84 timestamp and this point (2.16), the als collapses. It is evidenced by the O2 reading taking a nose dive from 14.64 to 10.12:1. It explains why the rpm rise slowed between these two points. It also corresponds with 'the wall'. A sure sign that 'the wall' is in need of more leaning. After the rpm and map passed the wall, the rpm climb picked back up. This corresponded with the O2 signal shooting back up to a lean signal. A sign that the als system was down for a moment, but was not out. The als system would continue on until the nitrous system was finally turned off at 200 kPa. This test run was cut short at 176 kPa.
So, if I activated the nitrous for 1.56 sec before transbrake release...?
Hmmm.
Probably the most significant advancement of turbo anti lag technology in the past decade has been discovered in front of your eyes, and shared with you to boot, and not one word of congratulations. Not even a challenge from the naysayers? You people truly disappoint me.
Probably the most significant advancement of turbo anti lag technology in the past decade has been discovered in front of your eyes, and shared with you to boot, and not one word of congratulations. Not even a challenge from the naysayers? You people truly disappoint me.
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
I havent checked in lately Don.
Give everyone a basic rundown of what your doing. There's so many pages to sort through it's tough to put it all together.
Nitrous, retarded timing, rich fuel mixture. The higher the rpm climbs, the more timng is retarded........is this correct?
Will the rpm stop climbing at a certain point or will it just keep going? I assume you can stop the rpm without a 2 step by using more retard with the boost controller. When the converter catches up to the engine the rpm will stop.....just like an n/a car without a 2 step.
Give everyone a basic rundown of what your doing. There's so many pages to sort through it's tough to put it all together.
Nitrous, retarded timing, rich fuel mixture. The higher the rpm climbs, the more timng is retarded........is this correct?
Will the rpm stop climbing at a certain point or will it just keep going? I assume you can stop the rpm without a 2 step by using more retard with the boost controller. When the converter catches up to the engine the rpm will stop.....just like an n/a car without a 2 step.
Hmmm.
Probably the most significant advancement of turbo anti lag technology in the past decade has been discovered in front of your eyes, and shared with you to boot, and not one word of congratulations. Not even a challenge from the naysayers? You people truly disappoint me.
Not trying to offend you, but, I wouldn't call this "a significant advancement". Years ago, when convertor technology wasn't very good, I used NOS to spool some engines with great success. We still used it on Dick Kereny's back half car this weekend. His TSM car spooled just as fast and had 6% slip through the traps on the 9.0 pass I made in it. I can appreciate the "do it your way" approach, but can't understand why you went the route you did.
No offense taken. The concept of this discovery is involved.
If you go back in this thread you will pick up clues that will enlighten you that what I've stumbled across is much more than simply injecting nitrous to spool a turbo. This is a 224 cid engine spooling a very heavy journal bearing 110/100mm turbine wheel.
One very important point is that I'm using nitrous paired with methanol. A combination that many have abandoned because of the large loss in hp rating of the system compared to pairing nitrous with gasoline. I've found a way to recover that lost rating in a manner that provides a very smooth and quiet drag anti lag system that can be used with an automatic transmission.
If you're not grasping the concept, I'm more than happy to answer any questions you have.
I took this route because it was untraveled. Discoveries waiting to be discovered.
I've just come to the realization of the significance of what I've discovered. I don't have any answers to most of your questions yet. I'll be at the track doing more testing this Saturday.
Presently, the timing is held at a constant retarded value throughout the nitrous and als duration.
The significance of my system is aimed more towards those that are burning alcohol and using nitrous paired with alcohol to keep their fuel system simple, rather than running a separate gasoline tank to pair with the nitrous injection system.
What is interesting about this system is that I can jet for a large hit, but the engine only sees part of the hit while the rest is passed to the exhaust system to provide the simplest and smoothest form of als ever seen. This takes some strain off the engine during initial hit of this large system. The power comes in smoothly in relation to the size potential of the system.
Essentially, one system is providing the effects of two different systems. The percentage that burns in the cylinder to provide direct power to the piston and the other part that is lit off in the exhaust system to provide additional turbo spooling help.
Another benefit that may be hard for some to visualize is the affect of egr. With the burning occurring in the exhaust, that raises exhaust gas temp. Any camshaft egr that occurs will provide contamination of a higher temp. The higher temp will provide a needed offset to the affect the methanol and nitrous has on cylinder temps, providing for more dissociation of the incoming nitrous/methanol charge entering the cylinder.
I hope I explained it well. If anything is still unclear, let me know.
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Titan uses nitrous and methanol on their 94mm equipped Scion which is somewhere under 200ci. I've seen the system work at the track.
So what made the huge difference your now seeing? Was it the converter change, finally found the proper mix of fuel and timing retard to spool the turbo??
So what made the huge difference your now seeing? Was it the converter change, finally found the proper mix of fuel and timing retard to spool the turbo??
I think the converter change came at about the same time that I started realizing what was going on with some funky datalog readings I was seeing. I'm not going to say that the little extra stall that the stator change gave me didn't help. The change in stall being somewhere between 100 to 200 rpm. But the turning point was really coming to the realization of what the datalogs were trying to show me, and other small clues here and there, such as the exhaust fume pickup box getting blown across the floor whenever the als became active, or the change in color of the primaries of the exhaust system during short duration tests giving me the clue the exhaust temps were getting to levels I've never experienced before.
It does so happen that there is a window of timing and overall air/nitrous/fuel ratio that has to happen to light off the als and keep it lit for the desired duration. And, I'm still not sure of how camshaft specifications play a part in helping with the process.
edit: I should also add that all tuning settings turned out to be completely opposite of what everyone was suggesting in this thread to obtain the best turbo spoolup time for use with an automatic transmission.
Yes. I've seen the Titan video. Very impressive. I'm willing to bet they have come across the same discovery.
Sorry for the basic questions. I haven't had the time to look through all the pages, but may try later.
Are you using a 76mm turbo or a 91mm? What dictated your choice in turbo?
What is the stall of the convertor? What did you chose such a tight convertor? What is your slip%?
Since you are running on alchol. I assume you aren't using an intercooler? What about a radiator?
Are you having to use the NOS to get a good 60' or is the turbo able to spool well enough without it?
Are you running the NOS dry or wet? How much hp are you hitting it with?
Holy cow. That's quite a grocery list there. I'll try to answer most of them. I know I'm missing an answer for one of them.
I was using an old school T76 with a 200 shot up until the middle of last year. I've been struggling with this Airwerks S510/91mm for more than a year now trying to get the launch squared away. I think I'm really close now. I'm now using a 305hp shot.
This rating is based on the size of the nitrous oxide side jets. I'm using wet port nitrous injection. Six #30 jets.
The choice of turbo was dictated by the compressor map. At boost my engine is flowing just above the middle of the highest efficiency island. As I increase boost in the future the point will continue to rise through the middle of the efficiency islands. Spooling this large turbo was not a concern after seeing the success I had spooling the T76. I knew I had my work cut out for me, but like I've stated in the past, don't bet against me reaching my goals.
If you study the latest video link I posted, you'll see exactly what the stall speed of this torque converter, on and off the nitrous looks like. You'll also see evidence of the als kicking in. I chose this tight T/C due to the planned use of nitrous to kick this thing in the pants. Nitrous was planned for this project from the very beginning in the mid 90s before the import crowd was even turning to alcohol and then nitrous on a regular occurrence. A few years before NHRA even created the import class.
Don't know the exact slip number. I would guess 9-10% at the shifts. Not sure what it is at the finish line. This is taking tire growth into consideration.
I'm still working up on the time while on the nitrous before actual launch with this new tuneup, so I can't tell you how much boost I will ultimately be leaving the line with. Presently, with .7 sec of nitrous before transbrake release, I'm seeing 1-1.5 psi boost right at transbrake release.
I am running a liquid intercooler with ambient temp water. No icing. I know there is a big argument about whether an intercooler is needed or not with alcohol. That has already been argued in this thread with my reasons for using one thoroughly explained.
I am running a radiator. It allows me to run the car to the staging lanes, make my pass and return to the pits without having to be towed. It allows more stable monitoring and uniform temperature control of the engine. It also allows for extended running of the engine to thoroughly warm the engine oil to burn off water and fuel that gets into the oil via blowby. It also makes the car streetable and restricts the driving distance to the capacity of the fuel cell.
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
There is one local team who has been using the method your using with their powerglide rather than the normal high timing/lean afr method everyone uses for autos. It's a big block so timing BTDC is in the 10* range while on the brake. I'm not sure where they run the afr during this time.The car is on gas and spooling twin 94's.
They would still need to cut cylinders to supply oxygen to kick off the als since the gasoline molecule carries with it zero oxygen. This type of erratic oxygen supply is what causes the erratic combustion in the exhaust system or what's commonly referred to as the pop and bang. Or, they could be routing a constant supply of air to the exhaust system through a type of air injection system, if they're even attempting to create an als.
This is the beauty of nitrous with methanol. The nitrous and methanol molecules both carry oxygen. Nitrous is 30% oxygen, methanol is 50% oxygen, so when these molecules make it through the combustion process and hit the heat of the exhaust system, they dissociate and have then created their own oxygen supply. The oxygen supply to the als is replenished with every cycle of each cylinder, so the oxygen and fuel supply to the als is consistent and creates a smooth and stable als reaction. Except for a louder and rougher tone to the exhaust, you wouldn't know als was occurring.
The trick is lighting off the als, maintaining the reaction for the needed duration, and supplying and maintaining the proper mixture for the duration so that by after the turbo all fuel has been consumed, hence giving a 14.64:1 perfect burn reading on the a/f ratio meter.
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