Alky tuning strategy

[Razor]

A little preface, three weeks ago I had my car at the track. I run a MaxEffort TW chip and the car netted an 11.22 on position three. The MPH went from 99 to 122 for a net of approx 23 on all the runs that day.

The following week I did a couple dyno pulls. First one was on position 3 same as I ran the car at the track. well it netted 504 RWHP and the AFR was 13:1 EGT in the 1630 range. Next pull I added fuel by going to position 4 to bring the AFR down.. the surprise was it picked up 8 rwhp at 11.5-12.1 AFR. EGT was 1480

This got me thinking, so at the Reynolds event I decided to do some testing on theory. These are the results listing 1/8 and 1/4 mile numbers low boost to higher boost runs.

Run 1
1.748
5.001
7.812
87.10
10.219
12.212
116.01

Run2
1.912
5.138
7.812
92.77
10.087
12.017
118.41

Run3
1.733
4.963
7.678
90.88
10.016
11.991
116.11

Run4
2.069
5.239
7.808
96.53
10.002
11.857
123.86

Run5
1.861
4.993
7.547
97.35
9.722
11.561
122.72

Now latter in the day the traction went South, but the MPH pickup on all runs running a bit more fuel with a lot of alky... yeilded +25 on the top.

The first half of the track was way too rich cuasing sluggish performance. Hence the difference in between my runs in the low 11's vs making more MPH.

Now running a leaner mixture for the first 1/8 and then richening things up.. may yield even better performance. More results to follow. Results may vary

Thought i'd share something I stumbled across by pure accident. And as always I try and get 5 passes to generate a theory. The increase in boost yielded an increase in top end charge. So the runs started low then worked my way up.

The last interesting thing noted is these runs were done unlocked and shifting into OD.

Next up..custom chip tuning to lean the car out heavily down low to get it to burst out of the hole stronger, then start adding additional fuel 6 seconds into the run and allow the alky to do its job.

We'll see

I'll post results accordingly

 

[salvageV6]

The Extender Extreme chip has that programmability in it for low gear fueling both in spool up and until 3rd gear.

Noticed that when reprogramming my chip when it lost it's memory this weekend.

However I am sure Eric can get you what you want also for fueling.

Also noticed the defaults gave me 2* extra timing in 1 and 2 I didn't know I had and don't really want.

Gotta program that out of there.

 

[Hyboost4Banger]

Julio...at what boost level were those 5 runs? can you rule out your tires getting sticky-er.....the track or dyno conditions changing.... colder or more humid air?....? Not trying to debunk your theory...just thinking there may be more to it. Seems like you picked up a lot of trap speed in that additional 8 whp. Frankly, I'm not sure 8 more whp would give me one more MPH in trap....(You do seem to be onto something though.......Nice job picking up 25 MPH in your total traps...pretty impressive... I'd like to test yor theory..but gotta figure how to vary fuel mixture with a 5 speed manual)

Mark

 

[Hyboost4Banger]

PS. Can you build me a speed based progressive fueler?

 

[Razor]

Actually the cars will be faster running additional timing on the bottom end. That strategy is already employed on the Extender as well as Erics chips.

Think an easier solution is meerely increase boost in 1st and 2nd thus leaning out the car and pull it out on third. This may be the easiest fashion.

Mark the boost on those runs was progressively getting upp'd. The outside temps were in the 60's. It wasnt bad weather. And again, just sharing some R&D. The 8 rwhp was what got me thinking. Dyno's are just tuning tools.. I see a pattern, and make adjutments see if they pan out. Looks like it did in one direction, the mph increase.. now work on the ET decrease.

The ME-r chip has something called an X factor adjustment that allows just that. To program additional fueling going down the track. I'll mess with that and see. I will also mess with higher boost in lower gears see if that yields the same results.

We always play on leaning out the cars to get the most MPH. It gets better ET's, but sometimes thing can be re-evaluated.

Maybe the alcohol, maybe the day, maybe the timing, maybe... pretty neat to run lower EGT and have it pickup more than its ever on the top end.
Speed based progressive fueler.. hummm

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Razor
Dyno's are just tuning tools.. I see a pattern, and make adjutments see if they pan out.

Bingo.
Dynos are for noting trends. There are few that can duplicate the underhood conditions, of running down the track.

As load goes up, you generate higher in cylinder temps.. In the lower gears you have the torque multiplication of the tranny that lessens the load on the engine, so in the lower gears you can run more timing, and slightly leaner. But, as you get to the big end of the track you have account for the higher in chamber temps..

The stock VSS is 2002 pulses per mile, so at 60 MPH that's 2,000 cycles per min.. If you trigger off of the raising and falling edges of the VSS you can double that frequency.

FWIW, in *my* code, I have a MPH based fuel correction.

 

[salvageV6]

Hmmm, the BSTC allows 3rd gear boost scaling.

Might have to try a few extra psi. in 1st and 2nd and scale back in 3rd.

Only problem is it takes 2-3 runs at LVD's altitude to figure out the boost on any given day.

 

[ijames]

Julio, you are running a mixed-fuel setup so you really can't believe the afr's you measured. Stoich for methanol is down around 5:1 (I'm too lazy to go look it up ) while gasoline is 14.7:1. The wbo2 measures lambda, and uses what you tell it the stoich ratio is to convert from lambda to afr. This is fixed at 14.7 in some wbo2's, and some let you input the number. You say you are running about 20% methanol and 80% gasoline so your overall stoich should be in the neighborhood of 12.7:1. If that's right and you use 14.7 instead of 12.7 to convert from lambda to afr you will be about 15% leaner than you think you are. I think that 13:1 on the dyno already sounds pretty lean since it's going to get even leaner on the track, and if that 13:1 was really 14-ish then I think it's perfectly reasonable that you added power by going richer. Bottom line I really think you need to use a wbo2 that displays lambda to get a real handle on your tuning (like the lm1).

 

[Razor]

There is an O2 bung already installed in my test pipe as of last week. So thats a direction that i'm already going too..

More testing to follow

 

[4sfed4]

Originally posted by ijames
Julio, you are running a mixed-fuel setup so you really can't believe the afr's you measured. Stoich for methanol is down around 5:1 (I'm too lazy to go look it up ) while gasoline is 14.7:1. The wbo2 measures lambda, and uses what you tell it the stoich ratio is to convert from lambda to afr. This is fixed at 14.7 in some wbo2's, and some let you input the number. You say you are running about 20% methanol and 80% gasoline so your overall stoich should be in the neighborhood of 12.7:1. If that's right and you use 14.7 instead of 12.7 to convert from lambda to afr you will be about 15% leaner than you think you are. I think that 13:1 on the dyno already sounds pretty lean since it's going to get even leaner on the track, and if that 13:1 was really 14-ish then I think it's perfectly reasonable that you added power by going richer. Bottom line I really think you need to use a wbo2 that displays lambda to get a real handle on your tuning (like the lm1).

I have been trying to get a handle on this topic for some time.

I still am not sure I fully understand what is going on.

But, on the last dyno outing, it didnt seem as though the wideband was being affected by the alky injection as much as I thought it might have been. I was spraying the M15 nozzle flat out (i.e. the pump at full speed as the PAC controls were maxed) and saw 13.5:1 way up top. My EGT was 1595 F peak. When I ballpark calculated how much methanol was going into the engine, I came up with about 119 lb/hr. The gasoline rate was about 208 lb/hr.

When I made runs without the alky on previous dyno days, my EGT and reported wideband O2 reading seemed to match up in the same way (as did the narrowband O2 voltages).

I know that theroetically they shouldnt

But, I do know that I am going with twin M10 nozzles!

 

[Swede2]

Maybe a bit offtopic but Razor, can you run different boost pressures for each gear with the Greedy Profec controller ? If you cant then I dont know how to do it ?

Daniel

 

[Joesmoke]

The apex-i controller, I believe will allow different settings for different gears. The greddy will not.

 

[Razor]

The Greddy has an input for a remote. The remote allows one to switch from hi-low. So you set the high to 27 then low 25..

I havent had time to dissect it yet

 

[Bens87tr]

I was just wondering that, what are you using to control boost? And what kind of wastegate setup? I've fallen into the trap of letting my car tell me what boost it's going to run.

 

[Razor]

Ive run the stock actuator setup via ecm control and a HD actuator,

And I currently use a Greddy profecB specII.

I'm getting a handle on the Greddy.. nice piece, poor instructions, and has a learning curve. Not bad tho.

Just hard to look at any guages going down the track.

 

[turbolc2]

Spark Map

Julio I'm new to the "alky" & my question is "off topic".From a directional aspect how much max spark typically do you see for a 93 & denatured ethanol set up.I realize that every car is different,but I thought you might be able to express this in terms of a range.I'm running an SMC single nozzle.My sig is up to date.Thanks Wayne

 

[Razor]

Typically its a few degrees over street timing levels. Some cars respond really well. The type of alcohol also plays a role as does the volume being injected. You pump in lots of alcohol.. you can run way higher timing.

General state of tune, carbon buildup in cylinders, oil contamination, compression, heat range on plugs, plug gaps, etc.. all play a role.

At 20-22 PSI you can get pretty aggressive on timing. As the boost comes up, so does the volume the motor needs to keep out of KR.

My car runs 20 degrees. Tho it works well at 24 degrees in 1st and 2nd, then 20 in third at high boost. The TTA heads are a little different.

And the GN heads seem to respond better to timing.

Lastly I get better KR results on methanol vs ethanol.

HTH