Anyone know how to use a FlexHone aka 'Dingleberry' hone?

[FlaBoy]

In the next day or so, I will be honing one of my cylinders in preparation for re-ringing it. The engine is still in the car, and I'll only be repairing the one cylinder (the piston burned up due to a non-functioning knock sensor). I know this isn't the ideal fix, but I am on a limited budget with both time and money, and this will get the car back on the road long enough for me to save up for a good rebuild. I've already checked the bearings (which look surprisingly healthy) and the cylinder in question is in good shape.

I've lined up to borrow a flex hone (aka dingleberry hone, ball-brush, etc) in the proper size

My question is, exactly how does one use this? Obviously it gets chucked into a drill and moved up and down in the cylinder while its spinning. I was wondering what rpm the drill should be run at, and how fast should it be moved up and down? How long should it take? a few seconds? a few minutes? I don't need to remove much material, the bore isn't damaged, I just need to clean it up enough to get a good seal with the new rings.

I know I should use some sort of lubrication, but am not sure what to use? Motor oil? Something lighter, like cutting fluid? I seem to recall someone saying to use tranny fluid?

And yes, I know I need to obviously do my best to keep things as clean as possible during the honing, and clean everything thoroughly afterwards.

Any help from guys who have used one of these before would be very helpful. Thanks!!

 

[joe_schindler]

Get a ½ inch drill that will run about 200-250 RPM.

Lube the hone and cylinder with WD-40.

Drop ball-end hone in trash can and don’t look back.

Find a stone hone that will provide the finish your rings need.

Run the hone in cylinder at RPM and stroke to provide the cross-hatch pattern that ring manufacturer specifies.

Check cross-hatch in cylinder to see if cylinder will require re-bore to next oversize.


You probably don’t like the answer; but using a ball hone won’t let you know if the cylinder is ruined. A ball hone is only going to make the cylinder look pretty no matter how bad it really is. You may be on a budget; but if you’re wasting your time and money “fixing” an engine that won’t have compression on one cylinder; you’re not saving anything.

 

[joe_schindler]

Are you trying to do this with the crank still in the engine?

 

[charlief1]

My question is, exactly how does one use this? Obviously it gets chucked into a drill and moved up and down in the cylinder while its spinning. I was wondering what rpm the drill should be run at, and how fast should it be moved up and down? How long should it take? a few seconds? a few minutes? I don't need to remove much material, the bore isn't damaged, I just need to clean it up enough to get a good seal with the new rings.

I know I should use some sort of lubrication, but am not sure what to use? Motor oil? Something lighter, like cutting fluid? I seem to recall someone saying to use tranny fluid?

Get a friend to help you. Move the hone up and down as fast as you can to get a good crosshatch in the cylinder. A standard 1/2" drill should do well and the speed should be around 5-600 RPM. The reason for the friend is so he/she can spray WD40 in while you hone it. Cover the crank journal and have some cheap carb cleaner and rags handy to wipe down after you're done. Soap and water afterwards on a rag and then WD40 as soon as you're done cleaning it. Put some oil in afterwards to make sure it doesn't rust until you get the new piston in. After that you just pop the piston in and go for it.

 

[reed0380]

Forget that ball hone! You can not control cylinder size and cylinder features such as taper, bell mouth, and true roundness. If you scored the cylinder with deep scratches, no amount of honing is going to bring it out to a diamater sufficient to remove all scratches. Even if you could, what are you going to use for a piston size? Pistons are available in oversizes of +.020" and +.030".
Don't think you are going to ball hone that block with that toilet brush and put a standard bore piston back in the hole. You are looking at a back-yard job with typical back-yard results. Poor compression, overheating, and smoking like a train.

 

[bison]

The engine did not burn up a piston because the knock sensor failed. It failed because there was not enough octane for the application. Ball hones are a joke

 

[FlaBoy]

Drop ball-end hone in trash can and don’t look back.

Find a stone hone that will provide the finish your rings need.

I did a bunch of searching and even posted a thread on here asking about the ball hone vs. the 3-shoe rigid stone hone, and got kind of a mixed response. From what I've read, they ball hones are easier to use and less chance of accidentally damaging the bore by improper use. More importantly, I can borrow one, rather than buying a $30-40 rigid 3-shoe hone I will only use once. Are they really that bad? For everything I read trashing the ball hones, I read something praising them. Does anyone have any personal experience with them?

Are you trying to do this with the crank still in the engine?

Yes... again, I know its not the ideal situation, but its the only choice I have.

If you scored the cylinder with deep scratches, no amount of honing is going to bring it out to a diamater sufficient to remove all scratches. Even if you could, what are you going to use for a piston size? Pistons are available in oversizes of +.020" and +.030".
Don't think you are going to ball hone that block with that toilet brush and put a standard bore piston back in the hole. You are looking at a back-yard job with typical back-yard results. Poor compression, overheating, and smoking like a train.

The cylinder walls look fine, there are no scratches, nothing catches a fingernail, or snags a piece of nylon stocking rubbed over it. I only want to refinish the surface so the new rings can seal, not remove any material. Again, as I said, I know its not the best solution, but even if i do get an engine with poor compression, overheating, and smoking, its better than one that doesn't run, at least until I have the time/money to do a real rebuild.

The engine did not burn up a piston because the knock sensor failed. It failed because there was not enough octane for the application. Ball hones are a joke

Well, I don't know exactly what caused the piston damage, but it looked like detonation damage to me, which I assumed was because of my smashed knock sensor combined with an overheating problem I have since fixed. No intercooler (they call them 'hotairs' for a reason) + running hot + no knock retard +florida summer + boost = detonation

 

[Dabigguy]

How about some pics of the cylinder and old piston?

You are going to have problems honing the cyl. with the crank still in the motor. What is going to happen is the WD-40 and the abrasive that comes off of your hone will find it's way inside your motor . That will eat up bearings and crank once you get it running again. It CAN be done, but WOULD I do it, no.

 

[BlackBandit]

Use the ball hone. If you use a stone hone and the walls are worn (I don't mean scratched or abused I mean normal wear) sometimes it won't follow the walls that well and you'll have "patchy" results. Follow charlief1's advice and you'll be all right. Don't take too much off and as long as you're not expecting machine shop results you'll be okay. I would also suggest a set of file fit rings so you get the gap right. Lot's of guys went really fast doing back yard stuff for a long time (kind where our hobby started) and there's no need to be afraid of it as long as you know what you're doing and what you're going to get. Save for a new engine and have fun with the one you've got. Good luck. james

Edit: As for the speed just pretend you're j@#$!*$ off a donkey and you should be okay. You'll be looking for about a 45 degree angle on the crosshatch.

 

[FlaBoy]

How about some pics of the cylinder and old piston?

You are going to have problems honing the cyl. with the crank still in the motor. What is going to happen is the WD-40 and the abrasive that comes off of your hone will find it's way inside your motor . That will eat up bearings and crank once you get it running again. It CAN be done, but WOULD I do it, no.

I had pics posted in a previous thread, when I was trying to figure out what to do with the motor and if i could get away with a simple hone/re-ring job. I will try and scrounge up some pictures if you like. As far as all the nasty stuff getting into the motor, I know I need to watch out for that. My whole day today is devoted to masking off the exposed rod journal on the crank, covering as much of the rotating assembly as possible with shop towels and visqueen, and pretty much doing anything I can to minimize contamination of the rest of the engine.

As for the speed just pretend you're j@#$!*$ off a donkey

funniest thing I've read all week!!!

 

[notacarlo]

"As for the speed just pretend you're j@#$!*$ off a donkey"


I believe it says this ver-batim in the users manual.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Must be..

"As for the speed just pretend you're j@#$!*$ off a donkey"

a "Texas thing"!!!

Actually, a "ball hone" is a glaze buster.[Sold in different grits] If a quicky fix is in order, hit it a few strokes, and take a look. Once the "shine" is gone, U R as good as it's going to get.
As for "dirt", protect the crank, and the adjacent areas w/ paper towels. Once the job is done, a spray down w/ brake cleaner, over the lower end, is about all you can do.
To clean the dust out of the bore, once the brake kleen thing is done, use white paper towels, and atf. Once the towels come out red, not black, U R as good as U R going to get.
I would use a ring set that has "quick seating characteristics.[sp]
Wipe the cyl down w/ some 30 wt, and put it together.

[To minimize dirt in the lower end, don't run the hone past the bottom of the bore.]

 

[joe_schindler]

I did a bunch of searching and even posted a thread on here asking about the ball hone vs. the 3-shoe rigid stone hone, and got kind of a mixed response. From what I've read, they ball hones are easier to use and less chance of accidentally damaging the bore by improper use. More importantly, I can borrow one, rather than buying a $30-40 rigid 3-shoe hone I will only use once. Are they really that bad? For everything I read trashing the ball hones, I read something praising them. Does anyone have any personal experience with them?

There’s no chance you can properly use a ball hone. There is no way to properly use a ball hone. Think about how a ball hone works; then how a piston, ring, and cylinder seal; then tell me how a ball hone actually helps.

Really; I’d worry more about the damage you’re going to cause to the rest of the engine with all the abrasive that makes it’s way to lifters and bearings.

Yes... again, I know its not the ideal situation, but its the only choice I have.

I doubt that your only choice is to do the worst possible thing you can do. Yep; engines are expensive; but it doesn’t mean that doing the minimum and hoping for the best is going to work for you.

The cylinder walls look fine, there are no scratches, nothing catches a fingernail, or snags a piece of nylon stocking rubbed over it. I only want to refinish the surface so the new rings can seal, not remove any material. Again, as I said, I know its not the best solution, but even if i do get an engine with poor compression, overheating, and smoking, its better than one that doesn't run, at least until I have the time/money to do a real rebuild.

Your eyes can’t see what the cylinder wall is really like. That’s why Starrett makes expensive bore gauges. If you only needed a fingernail or an old stocking to build an engine; people would save their money rather than buy micrometers.

The quickest and easiest way for me to check and see the condition of a cylinder is to run a flat stone hone or glaze breaker in it for a few seconds. Every high spot will have the scratches from the stones in it. The parts that are untouched are larger in diameter.

Well, I don't know exactly what caused the piston damage, but it looked like detonation damage to me, which I assumed was because of my smashed knock sensor combined with an overheating problem I have since fixed. No intercooler (they call them 'hotairs' for a reason) + running hot + no knock retard +florida summer + boost = detonation

I guess you were lucky that you only got one piston. Usually; if everything is even; you’ll get at least two or more. Could you have a plugged injector?

Use the ball hone. If you use a stone hone and the walls are worn (I don't mean scratched or abused I mean normal wear) sometimes it won't follow the walls that well and you'll have "patchy" results. Follow charlief1's advice and you'll be all right. Don't take too much off and as long as you're not expecting machine shop results you'll be okay. I would also suggest a set of file fit rings so you get the gap right. Lot's of guys went really fast doing back yard stuff for a long time (kind where our hobby started) and there's no need to be afraid of it as long as you know what you're doing and what you're going to get. Save for a new engine and have fun with the one you've got. Good luck. james

Make sure you fit those rings to the bottom of the cylinder; ‘cause the top of the cylinder is going to be bigger. When the ring fit to the top of the cylinder is drawn to the bottom of the cylinder by the piston; the ring or the cylinder is going to fail.



If you just want to make the cylinder look pretty; use the ball hone. But; run it for a minute in one direction; then reverse it for a minute. That way; you’ll have the pretty cross hatch pattern over the entire cylinder. You’d never get that with a flat stone hone.

The flat stone hone is not going to leave that pretty cross hatch in all of the irregular or depressed areas of the cylinder.

If you get the chance to tear this engine back down; look at the cylinder wall and enjoy those cross hatch patterns that the rings could never touch. They’ll look just like the day you scuffed them in there.

Ball hones are the costume jewelry of engine work. They make things look nice; but aren’t worth anything.

But; it’s your engine; f--- it up if you want to.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

nay-sayers.

this is the only choice this Kat has, let him rock it.

Its fairly simple, Charlie hit it on the head above.

just take your time and clean everything as well as you can.

you should be fine for a STOCK engine. people have been doing this for years.... boosted or not.

A.j.

 

[joe_schindler]

nay-sayers.

this is the only choice this Kat has, let him rock it.

Its fairly simple, Charlie hit it on the head above.

just take your time and clean everything as well as you can.

you should be fine for a STOCK engine. people have been doing this for years.... boosted or not.

A.j.

Then:

if there’s been all this searching and researching; why even bother with a hone and file to fit rings? You’ll do far more damage with the hone; and fitting a ring is a waste of time.

 

[yullose]

Here's my humble opinion...

If the cylinder wall is not damage and the rings are OK, then I would remove the rings from the old piston, (keeping them oriented correctly) and put them on the new piston.

25+ years ago my folks had a '79 Monte Carlo with a 231 Buick engine in it. (from the factory)
An overheated motor caused a blown head gasket and popped a hole in one piston.

My folks were low on cash, and I worked at a local auto machine shop.

I pulled both heads, performed a quickie valve job and resurfaced them at the shop.
I dropped the oil pan, removed the piston & rod from the cylinder and replaced the piston with a new aftermarket one. (Sealed Power/TRW) I carefully took the perfectly good rings off the bad piston and put them on the new piston. I even re-used the rod bearing.

I did this because I didn't want to get dirt in the crankcase from running a hone in the cylinder while the engine was still together. That risk was far greater than the risk of using a set of rings that would otherwise have been fine anyway.

The relationship between the rings and the cylinder wall are FAR more critical than the one between rings and pistons.

I put everything back together with Fel Pro gaskets and torqued everything to factory specs.

The car ran fantastic and never had a problem after that.

It was traded-in several years later, still running well with the oddball piston and re-used rings & bearing.

 

[87GN_70GS]

Keep in mind the crank will have the rod bearing oiling holes exposed. Cover those up so no abrasive gets in there.

 

[reed0380]

You list your occupation as a "nuclear pharmacy technician" in your public profile yet you can't afford $30 or $40 for a 3-stone flat hone?

With a title like that I would think you are earning at least $12 per hour. Please forgive me if you have fallen on hard times or are unemployed. If so, you need to do something about it like get a job or a second job.

If you can borrow a ball hone why can't you borrow or rent a 3-stone hone and do the job correctly?

If you detonated it enough to do piston damage, you had better check the top half of all of your rod bearings because they are probably hammered, right BISON? If your rod bearings are beat up you need to stop right here and re-think the whole project.

 

[Just a Six??]

Here's my humble opinion...

If the cylinder wall is not damage and the rings are OK, then I would remove the rings from the old piston, (keeping them oriented correctly) and put them on the new piston.

25+ years ago my folks had a '79 Monte Carlo with a 231 Buick engine in it. (from the factory)
An overheated motor caused a blown head gasket and popped a hole in one piston.

My folks were low on cash, and I worked at a local auto machine shop.

I pulled both heads, performed a quickie valve job and resurfaced them at the shop.
I dropped the oil pan, removed the piston & rod from the cylinder and replaced the piston with a new aftermarket one. (Sealed Power/TRW) I carefully took the perfectly good rings off the bad piston and put them on the new piston. I even re-used the rod bearing.

I did this because I didn't want to get dirt in the crankcase from running a hone in the cylinder while the engine was still together. That risk was far greater than the risk of using a set of rings that would otherwise have been fine anyway.

The relationship between the rings and the cylinder wall are FAR more critical than the one between rings and pistons.

I put everything back together with Fel Pro gaskets and torqued everything to factory specs.

The car ran fantastic and never had a problem after that.

It was traded-in several years later, still running well with the oddball piston and re-used rings & bearing.

I am no Pro by any means but that makes sense to me. If the rings are good & piston is bad just reuse the same rings?

 

[joe_schindler]

Here's my humble opinion...

If the cylinder wall is not damage and the rings are OK, then I would remove the rings from the old piston, (keeping them oriented correctly) and put them on the new piston.

25+ years ago my folks had a '79 Monte Carlo with a 231 Buick engine in it. (from the factory)
An overheated motor caused a blown head gasket and popped a hole in one piston.

My folks were low on cash, and I worked at a local auto machine shop.

I pulled both heads, performed a quickie valve job and resurfaced them at the shop.
I dropped the oil pan, removed the piston & rod from the cylinder and replaced the piston with a new aftermarket one. (Sealed Power/TRW) I carefully took the perfectly good rings off the bad piston and put them on the new piston. I even re-used the rod bearing.

I did this because I didn't want to get dirt in the crankcase from running a hone in the cylinder while the engine was still together. That risk was far greater than the risk of using a set of rings that would otherwise have been fine anyway.

The relationship between the rings and the cylinder wall are FAR more critical than the one between rings and pistons.

I put everything back together with Fel Pro gaskets and torqued everything to factory specs.

The car ran fantastic and never had a problem after that.

It was traded-in several years later, still running well with the oddball piston and re-used rings & bearing.

Well; I looked up the old post;

Well I took off my heads to replace a suspected blown head gasket, and when I popped the head off, turns out the situation is worse than originally thought. One of my pistons has a small piece missing from the edge, and about half of its circumference (centered on the missing piece) seems to be eroded/damaged. Under closer inspection, it seems there are small flecks of what I assume are melted metal stuck to the top surface of the piston in the damaged area. Below are some pictures of the piston in question:

And a closeup

Different lighting

And a closeup

The car seemed to run pretty good before I took it apart. The only reason I decided to replace the HG was that the one cylinder had slightly lower compression than the rest, and I had a coolant leak that hadn't gone away after replacing all the usual suspects. Since the coolant wasn't leaking anyplace externally that I could find, I assumed I had a leaky HG.

Surprisingly, the cylinder bore itself seems okay, the worst looking part (the scoremarks where the major piston damage is) seems very smooth to the touch, and doesn't catch a fingernail when drug across.

My first question is, what would be the quickest and most economical way to fix this? I am on a very limited budget, and was hoping to get the car back in running shape before the fall semester begins and I am swamped with research, teaching, etc. Oh, and since I haven't mentioned this yet, the engine is still in the car, so if it all possible I would prefer to fix it without having to yank the whole motor (its parked in my driveway which has a rather steep slope so pulling the motor would not be fun). My hope is that I can just drop the oil pan, pull that rod and piston out, give that cylinder a quickie hone-job, put a new piston/ring-set on the old rod and bolt it all back up. From your guys experience, does this seem like a workable fix? The car is a hotair, and my daily driver, so its not ever going to see much more than stock boost or power levels and might make it to the track once or twice a year just to see what it'll do. Like I said, I'm really trying to get a workable fix done easily and quickly here, so while I know it'd be ideal to pull the motor, get it professionally gone through, etc. I'm hoping it won't come to that.

My second question is when replacing the bad piston, any clue where to get another one? I have no idea if the pistons in there are stock. Are the stock hotair pistons the same as the stock IC'd pistons? If so, mine do not appear to match the ones pictured in the
Piston Photo Guide on GNTType.org as the stockers have a dimple to denote the front side, whereas mine have two notches. In addition, mine also have "STD" stamped/cast into their top surface (I assume denoting standard bore, as opposed to .030 over, etc.). If anyone can identify these pistons, or shed any light on which brand/type of piston I should get to replace it, please let me know. I assume I should get the same style/brand as the one in there to replace it to retain the same weight and balance for the rotating assembly.

I know this is a long post, but I really need some help here guys, I need to get this car back on the road soon, and this damn piston just threw me a stumbling block. Thanks for any assistance you can give me.

and I don't think that re-using the rings are an option.


I'd be willing to bet that there is more damage to the cylinder than you think. A ball hone will make it look pretty; but it won't fix it. Neither will a flat stone hone.

If you're just going to patch it; I wouldn't put a hone in it at all. I can’t imagine anyone using a hone in a cylinder; with the crank right below it anyway.