Anyone Tried 1/2" Head Bolts??

[Alky V6]

Mike, I want to apologize if I've seemed like a pest. Sometimes I realize that I become over anxious in my attempt to help someone out, to the point that I just make a complete pest of myself. I had a few more questions about your setup, but I'm going to keep them to myself and spare you the aggravation. You and me both know that I know personally what it's like to have people come at me with 'better ideas'. I hope you realize I was only trying to help in my strange way.
I'll shut up now and just watch.

Good luck, and take some videos. I want to see this thing run!!!

 

[BlownV6]

Joe, I respect your opinion but obviously disagree with you that installing the 1/2" studs has somehow weakened the clamping potential. I will admit that until it has been proven in real world punishment that I cant say with certenty that it worked , so stay tuned. I will be the first to report any negetive issues the I see with doing this. Mike

Don W. , you were not bugging me, matter of fact I have a great appreciation of your passion of daring to be different!! We must share a similar gene in our blood line. I just want to keep this subject on point as I feel this will be a vast improvement in HP capability of stage 2 blocks and can be used to improve stock block HG issues also. But the Proof is in the puddin , so lets see what happens!! Mike

 

[turbobuick]

You've got me on the head gasket deal. I've lost them; along with valves, pistons, rods, cranks, blocks, heads, transmissions, drive gears, and lots of other pieces along the way. Looking back; the head gaskets were probably some of the best fuse material I've come across. Just like a fuse in an electrical system; it's a lot easier to replace a head gasket than a piston or a block.

Joe,
Do you have you any experience with Stage 2 stuff?

Mike,
Looks great! Can't wait to see how it holds up.

 

[TurboTR]

Certainly looks like it could hold up a building Hope it does help! And again, thanks for a great tech thread.

TurboTR

 

[BlownV6]

Well life got in the way today so not a whole lot got done on my project. The time I got to spend on it brought to light one stumbling block I didnt expect and another one that I was hoping would not be an issue ,but it is. Updates tomorrow hopefully. Mike

 

[joe_schindler]

Joe, I respect your opinion but obviously disagree with you that installing the 1/2" studs has somehow weakened the clamping potential. I will admit that until it has been proven in real world punishment that I cant say with certenty that it worked , so stay tuned. I will be the first to report any negetive issues the I see with doing this. Mike

Mike:

I really hope you don’t have any problems with this. Just because I don’t agree or wouldn’t have done it that way doesn’t mean I want to see you fail.

It's fine to disagree with me.

Thanks for listening,

Joe

Joe,
Do you have you any experience with Stage 2 stuff?

Chris:

Probably not as much Stage II experience as you. As I was the one that bought your heads and valve train; you should know. Have I miss something?

I’d have to rank my Stage II experience below production Buick; and even that below Donovan 417, Big Block Mopar, Small Block Ford, Italian OHC engines and various Japanese motorcycles; and of course the obligatory SBC’s. One thing they have taught me is that the bolts don’t seem to care what engine they are in.

Do you have any experience in Destructive and Non-Destructive Failure Testing of Fasteners in Compressional, Extentional, and Shear Loading? I do; but it never seems to be enough.

Joe

 

[Mac in SD]

Mike:

Do you have any experience in Destructive and Non-Destructive Failure Testing of Fasteners in Compressional, Extentional, and Shear Loading? I do; but it never seems to be enough.

Joe

So, your point has been that the 1/2" studs will fail?

 

[joe_schindler]

Do you have any experience in Destructive and Non-Destructive Failure Testing of Fasteners in Compressional, Extentional, and Shear Loading? I do; but it never seems to be enough.

Joe

So, your point has been that the 1/2" studs will fail?

No. I think the stud will be the last to fail. The 7/16 studs may (or may not) have stretched; but did not catastrophically fail; so I see no reason for a 1/2 inch stud to fail.

 

[CamoDeafie]

So.....you are saying that pistons, rods, other parts will fail before the 1/2" studs? not quite sure....(am a machinsit by training, but looking for a job.... )

 

[S2V6RACER]

Mike, not sure how much HP you are putting to the ground at 60psi and that coupled with how much more power the engine must develop to spin the blower.

Have you calculated this? Just curious for comparative reasons.

 

[BlownV6]

Mike, not sure how much HP you are putting to the ground at 60psi and that coupled with how much more power the engine must develop to spin the blower.

Have you calculated this? Just curious for comparative reasons.

Bear with me hear and I will give you some info based on Hillbilly math!!

I have no data whatsoever in a 1/4 mile. All ET's are 1/8 mile. I have found that normal 1/8 mile ET's equate to approx. .645 of the 1/4 mile ET's ( im sure someone has an exact formula but thats going to be awful close)!!

Best run ever was 4.25 on one day , and never repeated , so Im not going to use it. I have run a number of mid 4.30 and 4.440 runs. Using the .645 equasion those would have been 6.70 to 6.90 in the 1/4 mile ?? Using a moroso slide calculator that would take approx 1150 to 975 HP to the ground to run that. I have it from a number of credible sources that it takes approx 400 hp to turn the blower at the speed and boost Im making.

Not sure where this is going , but there is the info I have available!! Mike

 

[Dave Flanders]

Wow, I haven't been over here on TB for awhile and missed all this. Great reading and thanks to Mike for pushing the limits for all to enjoy. I'm kind of in the same boat with a 2.3 Ford, you can only go so far on what others have learned, past that and you're on your own.

Just a couple things - I agree with Don on the plugs. Those ground straps look awfully long for what you're trying to do with them. Turning them into glow plugs at random times can't help with tuning. I'm sorry I don't know much about your setup but am wondering how much jet stagger you're running? Are the same cylinders giving you problems?

As far as fasteners - sometimes you just have to try it. But here's some food for thought. I credit a friend of mine with finding this. His 2.3 turbo motor was running pretty strong (for a street car) and reliably using stock headbolts. He decided to step up and went with ARP studs. After a couple quick pulls on the street he discovered water leaking from between the block and head. Let it cool and it stopped. Happened over and over, so he pulled the studs and went back to bolts and the leaking stopped.

We kind of figured later that it was some detonation causing the lifting of the head but the ARP studs were slightly more elastic than the stock bolts and would stretch.

I then tried taking the studs out of my motor (40 psi on methanol) and went back to stock Ford head bolts. They worked fine for most of a season until I had problems with my nitrous assist system and it rattled (HARD) a bunch of times and finally ripped the head bolt bosses out of the block deck. The head gasket was still in one piece. That had never come close to happening with the studs.

Now I know everyone says nothing is better than ARP hardware but what proof do we have of that? The fact that ARP claims they are? Are there any tests or standards for the racing industry?

I'd be curious as to how the upgraded material in a 7/16" size would compare to a regular material in 1/2". Or how any of them would compare to an OE suppliers material.

Good luck with it Mike, I will be watching this closely.

 

[BlownV6]

Dave , Thanks for your intrest. I have never even seen a set of stock head bolts much less used them because Ive always run a stage 2 motor mostly nascar type stuff converted to drag racing. Hopefully others will chime in here with some experience on the subject , however it is my understanding that as soon as you begin making say 5 to 600hp head gasket issues will start.I think at that point many choose to go with ARP bolts or studs. I would say from 800hp and up you will only find ARP studs in the stock 7/16 size. Nobody is talking but I highly suspect that there are some big hp folks that have upgraded to the exotic materials (which I could have done). But since I would need to buy the studs anyway I thought why not take it to to max and go with bigger and exotic material. As Joe pointed out earlier, if this fixes the head gaskets then another week link will eventually rear its head , but Im Ok with that as long as Im moving forward towards the 3 second zone. Mike
BTW looking at my ARP catalog a 7/16 moly stud which is what we all use when preloaded at 65 ft# = 14,220# , a 1/2 moly stud torqued to95 ft# = 19,164 , a 1/2" exotic stud torqued to 119 ft# =23,955 . So thats nearly 10,000# of preload per stud more clamping power. And the L19 material I have is supposed to have almost no stretch at all. At least thats what there telling me!!

 

[Dave Flanders]

Not trying to convince you of anything Mike, just relating what worked on a 2.3. I'd be surprised if many stock factory bolts were that strong.

Here's what made me suspect the whole ARP thing years ago. With all the emphasis on stretch I wondered how that related to head studs so I made a fixture that let me measure actual stretch at different torque values.

I checked one of my 12mm head studs and it stretched .010" at only 30 ft/lbs. but held that same .010" all the way to their recommended 80 ft/lbs (with their moly lube).

When I called ARP to ask about it I was told "I was overthinking things". I'm sure they have good people working there but I've never been able to get hold of one.

 

[BlownV6]

Not trying to convince you of anything Mike, just relating what worked on a 2.3. I'd be surprised if many stock factory bolts were that strong.

Here's what made me suspect the whole ARP thing years ago. With all the emphasis on stretch I wondered how that related to head studs so I made a fixture that let me measure actual stretch at different torque values.

I checked one of my 12mm head studs and it stretched .010" at only 30 ft/lbs. but held that same .010" all the way to their recommended 80 ft/lbs (with their moly lube).

When I called ARP to ask about it I was told "I was overthinking things". I'm sure they have good people working there but I've never been able to get hold of one.

I know you werent trying convince me of anything. Maybe someone has a stock head bolt story to tell that is relative to this. Also just passing on the info I had about the parts I was using and the options available from ARP. It was fairly obvious to me what would work the best , real question was I willing to put out the expense and time and effort to make this happen. Well I guess thats pretty obvious by now Gotta get busy!! Mike

 

[BlownV6]

OK the 2 items I ran into yesterday were.

1 - When I drilled the head studs out to 1/2" , I used a 1/2' drill bit which gave enough clearance to slide the studs through all the holes with no problem. But when installed on the block only about 1/2 of them would engage in the threads in the block without forcing the issue. So I put them back on the fixture and reamed them out to .515 which seems to be OK , .520 would probably have made all of them drop ins , but a couple are snug.

2 - Once the stud holes were adjusted then I ran into a problem that I was hoping would work out , but no dice. I ordered the studs a bit longer than I needed so that I could use heads that havent been milled at all ,or if I build billet heads I will make the shorter bosses thicker than what you see that these heads are. If you look closely at the first 2 pics you can see where GM angled a cutter into the stud nut locations which works fine with the 7/16 stuff. But a combination of the bigger 1/2" studs that use taller nuts than the 7/16" nuts , plus the fact that I ordered longer than needed studs put the top of the stud up far enough that the nut wouldnt even come close to starting on the stud. So I rounded up a cutter that would cut close to the diameter I needed ,put them back on my fixture and cut a clearance groove so that the nuts would clear. That took a couple trial and error attempts on the first head to get it right. last 2 pics you can see where I had to slightly machine the clearance. Mike

 

[BlownV6]

OK, So far so good!! Got the heads put on it and all the studs torqued to 100 ftlbs Actually pulled own preety good , not quite like the main studs tighten up but felt way safer than the 80# used to feel on those old 7/16 studs. Right now Im tickled pink!! I will sleep better tonight!!

I think I will leave it torqued up tonight , then take it apart tomorrow, I will take the heads to my head man on Monday and start cleaning up the block and all the parts and pieces to start working towards putting the short block back togeter next week. Mike

 

[turbogray]

so you went to L19 studs and plus drilled and tapped for a 1/2 studs ?

 

[BlownV6]

so you went to L19 studs and plus drilled and tapped for a 1/2 studs ?

Yes I did. The next step would have been to go L19 studs in the 7/16 , or step up to 1/2" moly studs. Either way I was going to have to purchase studs and if I went to 1/2" I would also need nuts & washers. After checking out the pricing I decided to skip over a coulpe steps and go right up to the top step that is feasable with stage 2 heads, and thats L19 studs x 1/2" and take on the challenge of making it work.
Now that this seems feasible I will test it out and if I can ever afford to go with the billet heads I will design them with 1/2" stud provisions!! That would be the ultimate combination that I can invision. Mike

 

[BlownV6]

Do you have any experience in Destructive and Non-Destructive Failure Testing of Fasteners in Compressional, Extentional, and Shear Loading? I do; but it never seems to be enough.
Joe

Joe, That question was intended for others but I felt the sting. I certainly have no engineering degree and have no experience with any sort of testing except life and racing(which at this level is nothing but a test!!)

You seem to have some engineering behind you so I would like to ask you a question!! In my little Hillbilly mind the question of weather I weakened the deck of the block by drilling it for 1/2" studs is still a good one that I would like to discuss. The reason I made this an open book project was Im sick and tired of seeing people bail out of the v6 world and go to SBC or BBC mainly because they cant see the potential of this v6. I would venture to say that most of those defectors had no idea what they were about to spend ,and were disappointed with the results.(meaning there are very few defectors who have gone nearly as fast as Fiscus , Gomes or Lyons have with v6's).

Ok , About the deck strength issue!! If you look at the deck of a stock block or the center 2 rows of a stage block they are relatively the same , with a triangler shaped deck surface being supported by the cylinder wall on 2 sides and the exterior (side of block)on the third side. Putting a 7/16" bolt hole in say the center would put the thread ?? closes to those supporting walls. Drilling that hole to 1/2" actually shortens the distance to the supporting wall and in my mind would actually strengthen that deck surface because the pull of the threads is closer to the supporting structure!! The pull of the bolt is at the thread and now the thread is closer to the structure that supports it!!
In my mind thats the way I see this!!

Example: 2 wagons loaded with 60,000# of material were parked centered up on a 30' bridge. First wagon has a 20' wheel base(7/16" thread) so its weight is 5' from each support. Second wagon has a 26' wheel base (1/2" threads)so its weight is 2' from each support. Which wagon is putting the most load on the bridge span(deck surface)?? From nearly 60 years of lifes experiences I say the bridge is subject to less load(less flex) with the bigger wheel base. Im all open to any and all opinions on this!! Thanks Mike