marleyskater420
still needs to learn
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2004
Wayne, you are without a doubt one of the most unique people i have met. Hahaha!
Yes Sir!
707 362 6030
We can source almost anything except good excuses for the wife.
Article on Why Billet Turbos Make So Much Power and The Different Types of Billet Wheels
- Thread starter marleyskater420
- Start date
Wayne, you are without a doubt one of the most unique people i have met. Hahaha!
Yes Sir!
707 362 6030
We can source almost anything except good excuses for the wife.
marleyskater420
still needs to learn
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2004
Before I get to question 3, I want to address something; I've received some PM's that are saying that my article has an overtone to it that implies that PTE turbos are no-good, or overpriced, or overhyped. I'd like to address this publicly so that there is no confusion on the matter.
PTE turbos make amazing power, and have done so for many years. For years only the PTE CEA-type and Garrett GTX-type wheels used the point-milling process on their compressor wheels, and the power that these turbos made reflected the countless hours in R&D to perfect their designs. With the release of the new G4 turbos from WORK, I simply think that there is a new player on the field that has the experience and know-how to offer something to the public that would be on-par with a PTE turbo in terms of performance and cost (for the larger DBB units, at least).
I do think PTE turbos are a little overpriced for the durability of the units that you get. I want to make it clear that I have never personally had any issues with PTE turbos, only friends and people whom opinions/advice I trust.
3) Now for my response to Question 3) :
When you say "entry level billet wheel" I am going to assume that you are meaning a flank-milled, aka MFS, compressor wheel. Remember in my previous answer I stated that PTE is basically the only company that their MFS wheel is a very basic/economical wheel that does not have many design features to it.
If you are referring to PTE's MFS/entry-level wheels vs a cast wheel, strictly based on looks and the power ratings PTE gives the turbos, the MFS wheels do not appear to be that much better performing than cast wheels. If you look at a company like BNR, that produces exceptionally designed cast compressor wheels, and compare the power ratings of their 63mm compressor wheel, which is rated at 725-750hp, to PTE's MFS "entry level" turbos that the 61mm wheel is rated to 620hp, and the 67mm compressor wheel is rated to 755hp, the MFS wheels do not seem to be that much better.
It is entirely related to the company you are discussing and what they specialize in. A WORK 62mm wheel is rated to 75lb/min, which is a conservative 750hp for a wheel 1mm smaller. That would be the "entry level" billet MFS wheel from WORK, for example.
My point here is that the answer is completely relative to what company you are asking about.
4) Response to Question 4) ;
Maybe some of the Garrett GT wheels might be copies of their cast wheels, but none of the turbos that we use in our cars are direct copies.
An easy way to determine how much technology or design work has been put into a compressor wheel is to look at the flow rating, or HP ratings, of that compressor wheel.
You stated that the WORK billet wheels do not explicitly state what is different about the "entry" billet wheels vs the high performance G4 wheels. WORK doesn't really have an "entry level" so to speak. Their standard billet wheels can be compared directly to the PTE CEA and some Gen 2 CEA wheels. The G4 wheels are like the Gen 2 CEA and the new XRP wheels. When looking at a wheel's output first thing to look at is the flow rating of the wheels.
The WORK "entry" 62mm billet wheels are rated to 75lb/min all-in. The G4 wheels for 62mm are conservatively rated to the same flow of 75lb/min, but that is at the low-end of their flow. Meaning that the entry level wheels when run on a perfect setup can make a max of 75lb/min of air, but the G4 wheels could easily produce more. You have to know Reed (the owner of WORK) to know how he rates his stuff, to better understand this concept. He vastly underrates his turbos.
For example he rates his 64mm wheel to 84-89lb/min, yet that turbo on a Mitsubishi EVO on an AWD dyno made 932rwhp...that means that turbo was making upwards of 1,300hp at the crank, yet it was only rated for 89lb/min. This is what I mean when I say that he not only conservatively rates his turbos, but when they are put on the optimum setup, they can easily outflow what they are rated for. This is just to illustrate the point that while WORK rates their G4 turbos at the same output their "entry level" billet wheels at, it does not mean that the rating he gives is the real limit of what the turbo can produce. Does that make sense?
Does that help to answer your questions you had? If not, please let me know.
The biggest thing to remember here is that each company is different. You have to look at them individually and do your homework to make sure you know how they rate their wheels and what type of performance you should expect out of their different "levels" of turbos.
marleyskater420
still needs to learn
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2004
That would be a nice touch to add comparison pricing.
Just be very accurate if using competitors pricing as examples, as we all know how that can turn out...
Can a billet wheel be made for a stock GN turbo or has it already been done? One will all the magic milling too.
Might make it easier to go after one of those "stock" turbo records.
So this post I will address the different price points between cast, billet entry-level (PTE's wheels), billet flank-milled, billet hybrid-milled, billet point-milled compressor wheel pricing.
I will break it down into the following descriptions for the wheels;
A) Type of wheel it is
B) Description of the turbo (if applicable)
C) Power output (horsepower rating is at the crank unless otherwise noted)
D) Price Point
First off CAST wheel prices that you may expect to see:
1) WORK / BNR 6362 turbo.
A) Cast wheel
B) This wheel is pretty unique in that it has a LOT of R&D in it, and performs better than some basic billet flank-milled wheels do. This wheel was actually designed by both BNR and Reed from WORK turbos.
C) BNR rates the flow of this wheel at 75lb/min. On a Buick, 550rwhp or more has been seen on multiple cars. A rating of 725-750hp would be pretty accurate.
D) A brand new unit from BNR is $999 and that does NOT include a Buick turbine housing. $900 for a rebuilt unit from WORK. This includes; new bearing housing, billet dynamic seal backplate, 360° billet severe duty thrust bearing, ceramic coating of turbine housing. Available only in .63 AR Compressor housings. http://bnrsupercars.com/
2) WORK TE60
A) Cast 60-1 compressor wheel
B) Old school tried-and-true TE60. Cast 60-1 compressor wheel with a T31 Hi Flow 56mm turbine wheel.
C) 600-650hp
D) A Brand New unit is $950. A REBUILT unit would be $750. https://www.boostedrps.com/product-page/work-te60
3) WORK TE62
A) Same Cast 60-1 compressor wheel
B) Old school TE62. Cast 60-1 compressor wheel with a P-trim 65mm turbine wheel.
C) 620-675hp
D) A brand new unit is $1,050. A REBUILT unit would be $800. https://www.boostedrps.com/product-page/work-te62
4) Garrett GT3582R Dual Ball Bearing Unit. Does NOT include a Buick 3-bolt housing
A) Cast 61mm compressor wheel
B) Uses a traditional 61mm cast compressor wheel from Garrett. This turbo is a dual ball bearing turbo. This turbo price does NOT include a Buick 3-bolt turbine housing, but it DOES include a standard 4-bolt turbine housing.
C) 600 -675hp. ATP rates the turbo at 600hp. Garrett's catalog rates it at 675hp.
D) A brand new dual ball bearing unit with 4-bolt turbine housing is $1,614.99. Remember that unless you have 4-bolt headers, you'd have to still purchase a 3-bolt housing from a turbo manufacturer and have it machined to fit. https://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/mercha...duct_Code=GRT-TBO-006&Category_Code=GTGT3582R
FLANK-MILLED aka "MFS" COMPRESSOR WHEEL TURBOS:
5) Precision 5931E "MFS"
A) 59mm "MFS" billet flank-milled compressor wheel.
B) These wheels do not use all the design advancements that other "MFS" wheels from other companies use.
C) 600hp
D) $774.99. https://www.precisionturbo.net/turb...ails/Entry-Level-Turbocharger---5931E-MFS/524
6) WORK Billet 6262
A) Billet 61.5mm "MFS" flank-milled compressor wheel
B) These wheels utilize the technological advancements for increased flow that I described in the article.
C) WORK rates this wheel at 75 lb/min, and 720-750hp.
D) A brand new unit from WORK is $1,275. A REBUILT unit is $1,000. The rebuilt unit comes with; 61.5mm billet compressor wheel, 62mm turbine wheel, new bearing housing, billet dynamic seal backplate, 360° billet severe duty thrust bearing, and ceramic coated turbine housing. https://www.boostedrps.com/product-page/work-billet-6262
7) Precision 6776 "MFS"
A) 66.55mm flank-milled inducer compressor wheel
B) This turbo is from their "Entry Level" line of turbos. PTE refers to this wheel type as a "MFS" wheel. This is a journal bearing turbo.
C) PTE rates this turbo at 755hp
D) $999.99 https://www.precisionturbo.net/turb...tails/Entry-Level-Turbocharger---6776-MFS/498
8) Comp Turbo CT3S 6062
A) Billet MFS flank-milled 60mm compressor wheel
B) This turbo does NOT come with a Buick 3-bolt turbine housing. It comes with a standard 4-bolt turbine housing.
C) 680hp on JEGS, on Comp's site, they rate it to 800hp.
D) $749 new. Does NOT include the Buick 3-bolt turbine housing. https://www.jegs.com/i/Comp-Turbo-Technology/331/326062/10002/-1
HYBRID FLANK/POINT-MILLED COMPRESSOR WHEELS:
9) Garrett 6465 GTW
A) Billet hybrid flank/point-milled compressor wheel
B) This turbo comes with the Buick 3-bolt turbine housing, and also comes in a dual ball bearing version. These turbos were designed to be Garrett's answer to the Precision CEA and Gen 2 CEA wheels.
C) 84-89 lb/min, 875-925hp+.
D) A brand new unit is $1,469. This includes the Buick 3-bolt housing. https://www.boostedrps.com/product-page/garrett-billet-gtw6465
10) Borg Warner 300SXE 63/68
A) Billet hybrid flank/point-milled compressor wheel
B) This turbo comes with the Buick 3-bolt turbine housing. These turbos use the same compressor wheels that the EFR line of turbos use.
C) 78 lb/min, 785hp+
D) A brand new unit is $1,450. This includes the Buick 3-bolt housing. https://www.boostedrps.com/product-page/borg-warner-billet-63-68-300sxe
100% POINT-MILLED COMPRESSOR WHEELS:
11) WORK G4S 6765 Dual Ball Bearing Turbo
A) Billet 2618 aluminum point-milled compressor wheel
B) These are completely custom, built-to-order turbos with multiple compressor wheel options for each size so that the turbo can be designed specifically around your engine's setup. These wheels are 100% WORK Turbocharger's design. These turbos require additional water lines and oil-feed adapter fittings, which cost $145.
C) 95+ lb/min, 975-1,050+ hp
D) A brand new dual ball bearing unit is currently $1,875. https://www.boostedrps.com/product-page/work-g4s-premium-6765-dual-ball-bearing-turbo
12) Precision PT6766 CEA Dual Ball Bearing Turbo
A) Billet 2618 aluminum point-milled compressor wheel
B) This turbo uses Precision's advanced CEA-designed compressor wheel
C) 935hp
D) A brand new unit is $2,229.99. https://www.precisionturbo.net/Stre...Street-and-Race-Turbocharger---PT6766-CEA/480
13) Garrett GTX 3584RS Gen 2 Dual Ball Bearing Turbo
A) Billet 2618 aluminum point-milled compressor wheel
B) This turbo uses Garrett's ultra-high-flow/advanced Gen 2 compressor wheel, and their brand new high-horsepower "RS" turbine wheel. These turbos are the pinnacle of what Garrett has to offer. This turbo from ATP does NOT come with a Buick 3-bolt turbine housing.
C) ~88 lb/min, 1,000hp+
D) A brand new unit with a 4-bolt turbine housing is $2,465.93. If you have 3-bolt headers you would still need to purchase a 3-bolt turbine housing and have it machined for this turbo. https://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/mercha...uct_Code=GRT-TBO-B99&Category_Code=GG2-3584RS
I hope this gives you guys a good idea of what different types of compressor wheels would cost from different companies! I tried to get a diverse range of manufacturers to use for examples. I wanted to use more companies but I either couldn't get exact information on the compressor wheel types, or I couldn't get pricing for the units.
If you have any questions, please let me know!
I will be adding this list to the bottom of my article so that people have examples of the costs to refer to.
Thank you all for reading!
-Tyler
For questions on turbocharger recommendations/ideas, please call : 707 362 6030
As promised, here are some pics of my Stage 2 intake I picked up today that Fat Nat sold me. This intake was fully ported by Wilson Manifolds and made 1572hp previously. I'll be shooting to top that number by 100hp on Kenny Duttweiler's dyno when he builds my engine.
Very nice! My buddy did some work for Keith. I've met him and his wife. At the time he had a wicked Stage II manifold he built for PTE. I think it was an $8k piece! He has some really good racing stories too.
Just a suggestion, its up to you. people get offended way to easy these days.
Maybe change the following " Don't Overpay Or Be Fooled Into Buying The WRONG Turbo!! " to " get informed before you buy"
or something similar. Good stuff. Thnx for the write up.
Maybe change the following " Don't Overpay Or Be Fooled Into Buying The WRONG Turbo!! " to " get informed before you buy"
or something similar. Good stuff. Thnx for the write up.
marleyskater420
still needs to learn
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2004
I like that!
I know recently there has been multiple times that either my sarcasm or tone has not translated well over the internet, and caused a serious misunderstanding.... what you are saying make a whole lot of sense, and I think I will be changing the title to something along those lines!
Thank you for the input!