Buick turbos and import(supra, skyline) turbos....

[fbodlovr]

So, Still. What can a factory GN engine handle?!

And could the buick engine have shorter pistons, with longer rods, and rev faster and higher? Wouldnt this be a good thing, or would it be like the supra and have no low/mid torque?

 

[bison]

So, Still. What can a factory GN engine handle?!

And could the buick engine have shorter pistons, with longer rods, and rev faster and higher? Wouldnt this be a good thing, or would it be like the supra and have no low/mid torque?

Not much more than my sig reliably. You need to put a girdle in place and the rods arent the best design for 120+ft/lbs per hole. If theres any detonation the stock rods will fail quickly in a low 10 second car. They will bend and twist and rod bearing failure will result.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

An I6 has lots of advantages over a V6. Its got 7 main bearings as pointed out vs 4, it has single rod throws so you don't have to have a split pin for an even fire motor, there is no V in the crank case to introduce a weakspot in the middle, and the motor is naturally balanced since it has as much weight going up as comeing down which makes it very very smooth and easier on parts. The disadvantages are largely related to the length of the motor and trying to package it under the hood of something modern with low hoodlines. If you look at 6cylinder racing engines, they are all either flat aircraft style or inline. A V6 just has a nasty tendancy to eat crankshafts with the split pins and an oddfire motor introduces all sorts of other bizarre fatique issues from the nasty vibrations and irregular bearing loading due to the gaps in the firing order. If you look at the Supra motor it probably has a shorter stroke and deck height that drops the requirements of the rotating assembly meaning a shorter rod, like the Series II/III 3800 and a shorter piston. Get the piston too short and you run into oil control issues due to putting the pin in the rings. Also the V6 doesn't wing the revs because of the balance issues associated with it, a stock externally balanced engine is going to have more and more vibrations as the revs climb, thow in valvetrain harmonics, pushrod flex and other issues and the engine just isn't designed to rev like that because at the time when it was designed the American market wanted grunt, not high winding engines that needed steep gears and delivered poor off the line acceleration. We could get into OHC vs OHV too about port efficiency and once again you get into revs vs torque.
The production Buick V6 is largely hampered by flex in the block and the crank. The main caps flex along with the crank so you get bad fatique cycling and if you detonate the ductile rods deform but this throws everything out of balance and the forces can eventually rip the motor apart. Revs aren't kind to an engine, the forces in the engine tend to increase at the square of the rpm, so keep the revs low and you're more likely to keep the hard parts together. Detonation on the other hand tends to decrease with Revs due to insufficent dwell time in the cylinder, stuff just happens too quickly for the engine to knock if its close.

 

[fbodlovr]

So the complete factory motor can handle about 600 whp. And, if you were to get an internally balanced crank, and a girdle, would that help a lot to get more power out of the engine if everything else is stock?

 

[bison]

So the complete factory motor can handle about 600 whp. And, if you were to get an internally balanced crank, and a girdle, would that help a lot to get more power out of the engine if everything else is stock?

Id say 525whp is pushing a stock bottom end pretty hard. A forged crank and rods with a girdle has been over 800hp. You wouldnt build an engine with those parts while leaving everything else stock. It would defeat the purpose of what the parts were intended for. If you mean stock such as stock castings (heads/block) then it will allow you to extract the maximum reliable numbers out of those parts. But not much else would be stock if the engine had a forged/girdled bottom end and with the new blocks that Champion will be releasing not much if any of the high hp engines will retain much of the stock factory parts. It will be cheaper to go into a new block than mod a stocker for high hp. Hopefully

 

[fbodlovr]

Who makes a forged crank with stock specs?

 

[bison]

Who makes a forged crank with stock specs?

Eagle and CAT both grind their forgings out of the same blanks. The outcome is slightly different on each. Check out Full Throttle's crank kits. They are a bargain compared to what it cost to build a high hp bottom end 5 years ago. These are not drop in and go. The bearings need to be chamfered and the cranks need to be checked over thoroughly before assembly.

 

[cstavro]

that would be awesome... LSX V6!!!

i know don't worry, i've already started a thread at gminsidenews, and received good feedback New V6 needed - GMInsideNews Forums. i've also told the general himself! they couldn't say they liked it, because that would reveal future plans...we can only hope.

 

[cstavro]

An I6 has lots of advantages over a V6. Its got 7 main bearings as pointed out vs 4, it has single rod throws so you don't have to have a split pin for an even fire motor, there is no V in the crank case to introduce a weakspot in the middle, and the motor is naturally balanced since it has as much weight going up as comeing down which makes it very very smooth and easier on parts.

o rry?? is that why toyota put a new v6 in its lexus? all modern 60° V6 have split pins. it helps intake and exhaust tuning. another idea stolen from buick, which it doesn't exploit.

A V6 just has a nasty tendancy to eat crankshafts with the split pins and an oddfire motor introduces all sorts of other bizarre fatique issues from the nasty vibrations and irregular bearing loading due to the gaps in the firing order.

even fire v6 may produce annoying vibrations, but they're not destructive. ask jim ruggles.

If you look at the Supra motor it probably has a shorter stroke and deck height that drops the requirements of the rotating assembly meaning a shorter rod, like the Series II/III 3800 and a shorter piston.

it has the same stroke, and shorter pistons...like i said. stage 2 motors use 6.5" rods and 1.22" pistons. thay revved past 8000 rpm

thow in valvetrain harmonics, pushrod flex and other issues and the engine just isn't designed to rev like that because at the time when it was designed the American market wanted grunt, not high winding engines that needed steep gears and delivered poor off the line acceleration.

smokey yunick would tell you pushrods have nothing to do with it. it's the massive valves' fault. racing dohc have 1.5" intakes, with .25" stems. buick stage 2 have 2.125" intakes with .313" stems (albeit titanium), and 4" pistons, and still rev to 8000.

i agree with you that the 3.8 was designed for low rpm. stage 2 motors have the same deck height as the 3.8. buick used to sell forged cranks (do they still?). stage 2 are internally balanced. throw in some lightweight pistons, and she'll rev. the limiting factor becomes head flow. turbos minimize this to a large degree. higher pressure turbos, like the borg warner ett, can stuff more air/fuel into the cylinders through the smaller ports.

LS7 ports are VERY efficient. they're maybe 20 cfm off massively ported LT5 heads, with similar valve area (albeit much larger bore). and LS7's valvetrain is good to 8200 rpm (although limited by piston speed).

 

[johnnyttype]

i know don't worry, i've already started a thread at gminsidenews, and received good feedback New V6 needed - GMInsideNews Forums. i've also told the general himself! they couldn't say they liked it, because that would reveal future plans...we can only hope.

im gonna have to join that thread... the more support and demand for a product u have the better chance it will actually come true right?!:biggrin:

 

[1BADTT]

would it be like the supra and have no low/mid torque?

I think Supras do have low/mid torque "maybe not" as much low torque as a Buick but enough to '60 in the 1.3's. Torque gets you moving then hp takes over !! :biggrin: . You can have 700 ft/lbs of torque & 500 hp & a Supra with 800+ hp/600+ torque & ur still gonna be smoked. BTW it's unfair to compare our beloved LC2's or even S2's with a 2JZGTTE. The 2JZ is over engineered & way more efficient (DOHC) given the size. Just ask Kenny Duttweiler.

 

[fbodlovr]

What if they BOTH had 800hp and 600ft/lb torque? Would it be an even race then?

I forgot to mention. Doenst someone sell a stroker kit that is meant for stock bore, and it is already checked out, and balanced, and can be dropped right into a block?

 

[1BADTT]

Hth...

What if they BOTH had 800hp and 600ft/lb torque? Would it be an even race then?

I forgot to mention. Doenst someone sell a stroker kit that is meant for stock bore, and it is already checked out, and balanced, and can be dropped right into a block?

It's not gonna happen...both engines have diff displacements. Even if they did, lets say they'd '60 the same time then it would come down to the weight. Too many diff factors to give a fair comparison. It's peaches & apples here ! About the kit contact Dan @ DLS he should clarify ur doubts about stroker kits & guide u in the rt direction

 

[CTX-SLPR]

o rry?? is that why toyota put a new v6 in its lexus? all modern 60° V6 have split pins. it helps intake and exhaust tuning. another idea stolen from buick, which it doesn't exploit.

First off the 3.8 and 3800's are 90º V6's not 60ºs, but thats irrellevant since any evenfire V6 would need to have split pins. The reason for the V6 is showing up is due to packaging like I mentioned due to its space limitations. The rest I just don't feel like responding to.

 

[fbodlovr]

It's not gonna happen...both engines have diff displacements. Even if they did, lets say they'd '60 the same time then it would come down to the weight. Too many diff factors to give a fair comparison. It's peaches & apples here ! About the kit contact Dan @ DLS he should clarify ur doubts about stroker kits & guide u in the rt direction

DLS? Do you have a website address, or phone number? Both preferably.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

If we were to ever hear a GN push 40psi and rev to 9k RPM we would start hearing some serious compressor wheel noise also.

Most GN's rev to 5800 and push 30psi, far from 9krpm and 40psi.

Hell the turbo I bought for my GTO was marketed by showing it on an RX7 pushing 52psi!!!
Customers Cars

 

[fbodlovr]

Yeah, that does seem to be the reason. So high of boost causes them to be so dang loud.

 

[1BADTT]

Hth

DLS? Do you have a website address, or phone number? Both preferably.

He doesn't have a website , cantact him via pm. his username here I think is v6gofast. Maybe sgrim or anybody else can chime in with the phone #.