Can I turn a 83 motor into an 87

[charlief1]

Here's a little light reading for you.

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/pictureguides/blocks/blockguide.html

http://www.gnttype.org/general/v6hist.html

http://www.gnttype.org/resources.html

 

[turbofabricator]

Ken Duttweiler has said there is ZERO different e in strength of any production V6's. I'll go with his assessment. Good crank and steel center caps, you are OK to 650 HP or more.

 

[350turboGN]

Ken Duttweiler has said there is ZERO different e in strength of any production V6's. I'll go with his assessment. Good crank and steel center caps, you are OK to 650 HP or more.

Thanks for your input does anyone know of a turbo v6 stand alone harness

 

[turbodave231]

One simple question.
Given a choice between a stock 109 and and early 3.8 block, which one would you be willing to spend the money to perform the machine work for an all out stock block build?

• 3 billet caps
• ARP studs
• Thermal clean/shot blast
• Magnaflux
• Align bore/Align hone
• Square Deck
• Bore
• Chamfer
• Hone
• Plus all the other little things that need to be done

I can't see doing all this on an early block. In my opinion, I personally want to start with the best production block possible before I'd spend my hard earned money on this kind of work.

 

[350turboGN]

One simple question.
Given a choice between a stock 109 and and early 3.8 block, which one would you be willing to spend the money to perform the machine work for an all out stock block build?

• 3 billet caps
• ARP studs
• Thermal clean/shot blast
• Magnaflux
• Align bore/Align hone
• Square Deck
• Bore
• Chamfer
• Hone
• Plus all the other little things that need to be done

I can't see doing all this on an early block. In my opinion, I personally want to start with the best production block possible before I'd spend my hard earned money on this kind of work.

I would do a 109 just can't find one

 

[charlief1]

One simple question.
Given a choice between a stock 109 and and early 3.8 block, which one would you be willing to spend the money to perform the machine work for an all out stock block build?

• 3 billet caps
• ARP studs
• Thermal clean/shot blast
• Magnaflux
• Align bore/Align hone
• Square Deck
• Bore
• Chamfer
• Hone
• Plus all the other little things that need to be done

I can't see doing all this on an early block. In my opinion, I personally want to start with the best production block possible before I'd spend my hard earned money on this kind of work.

Now if it was a 4.1 would you be putting up this same statement? I think it might be time to see if Nick or bison want to jump in here and give their opinions.

 

[Nick Micale]

I have done over 2 dozen 4.1 builds as well as early 3.8 blocks and I cannot understand why some people say they are "junk" compared to 109 blocks?

About 3 years ago my TA alum block was due for a major freshen after 1000+ runs. I had a built 4.1 production block with steel caps so it was made into a clone of the TA build so I could continue racing, and also I wanted to see how far I could push a production block in the high 9's at 135-140 MPH range.

So far over the years an "issue" was water was leaking from one head which turned out to be a head gasket, but continued to make a few 9 sec. passes. A head gasket solved that issue which I have seen on a 109 block as well many times.

My first 4.1 build in the 90's ran lots of mid-low 10's for year even after I sold it.

But for a street build which is typically not high RPM or HP, reliability of an early block will easily equal that of a 109 block, and I will not even go into how many 109 blocks have been trashed in the 9's and even 10's?

 

[turbodave231]

Nick,
Just for the sake of argument, if a customer brought you two blocks, an early 3.8 and a 109 which are both equal in condition. Which block would you want to build?

I applaud your success with the 4.1 blocks. They offer more displacement and better breathing. Certainly good reasons to work with that block.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Nick Micale]

Dave, you must consider how the customer will use the car/engine?

If it is a mild street build, either one is up to doing the job. The last dozen or so GN's I have worked on were all related to upper end issues, mainly head gaskets, the safety valve!

The last block we replaced a week ago was because of the head gasket blowing out and also it torched the block.

 

[Pronto]

You're converting a Chevy powered Regal to a TB? Aside from deciding if a converted 83 block will meet your goals you have to add to the cost of all the other items you'll need. You might be better off buying a complete engine. What are looking to do with the car? It may be cheaper just to stick with the 350.

 

[87GNSteve]

So you guys are really telling this guy to spend $300 on a early block?
Maybe in the year 2030 we will be at that point but right now an early block is worth $100-150 tops.
I recommend against the early block for lack of oil drain boss and the different deck height.

OP: go to Harry's You Pull It in Hazelton Pa and get an entire engine minus accessories for $205 including core.
You could probably find a 3.8 in a number of cars over a wide range of years.....and maybe even get a 109 block or a 4.1.

 

[350turboGN]

Now if it was a 4.1 would you be putting up this same statement? I think it might be time to see if Nick or bison want to jump in here and give their opinions.

You're converting a Chevy powered Regal to a TB? Aside from deciding if a converted 83 block will meet your goals you have to add to the cost of all the other items you'll need. You might be better off buying a complete engine. What are looking to do with the car? It may be cheaper just to stick with the 350.

i though about keeping the 350 but a turbo Buick build would be fun

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

So you guys are really telling this guy to spend $300 on a early block?
Maybe in the year 2030 we will be at that point but right now an early block is worth $100-150 tops.
I recommend against the early block for lack of oil drain boss and the different deck height.

OP: go to Harry's You Pull It in Hazelton Pa and get an entire engine minus accessories for $205 including core.
You could probably find a 3.8 in a number of cars over a wide range of years.....and maybe even get a 109 block or a 4.1.

I agree 1000 percent. There is no way I would put the same time and money into a pre-109 block. It simply doesn't make sense. If I was dead broke, lived on a deserted island, had no phone or internet service and there was nothing available but a pile of 83 blocks, then maybe.

It's kind of like going to a whore house house for the first time and being offered Carmen Electra and Rosie O'donnell for slightly less the price. It's not like you go every day. Can they both get the job done? Maybe. But why choose Rosie?

I get physically nauseous when I think about my situation. I have 4.1 off-center stage-1 motor that cost me almost exactly what a 4.1 on-center stage-2 motor what have costed. Am I going 7's? No. But I still should have built the off-center stage-2. Biggest mistake I have ever made with my set-up.

Don't feel like me. Build the 109.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

Sorry Charlie, I didn't know you were a big Rosie O'Donnell fan.

 

[charlief1]

Sorry Charlie, I didn't know you were a big Rosie O'Donnell fan.

Can't stand the bitch, but I can tell you lover her. You chose a stage II block over a TA, which is the same as using an early block versus a 109.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

Can't stand the bitch, but I can tell you lover her. You chose a stage II block over a TA, which is the same as using an early block versus a 109.

The TA block was still only in the development phase when I had my Stage-1 built. But it wouldn't have mattered even if it was ready for retail. I was even dumber back then then I am today. It's been a long while since I started the build on this set-up. If I could do it again today, I would use the TA. But back then, I only had stage motor choices to make. And I believe I made the wrong choice at that. Not that my motor is bad. It's just not the best.

And I also believe if someone builds an '83 block instead of a 109 they too will make a choice they will regret.

And I hope we can keep my secret love affair with Rosie a secret between just us Buick guys. Otherwise Carmen might find out and through me a beating.

 

[charlief1]

I hope we can keep my secret love affair with Rosie a secret between just us Buick guys. Otherwise Carmen might find out and through me a beating.

I sure as hell won't tell anyone.

What the gist of this discussion is really a moot point though. The early blocks, properly prepped, have gone into the 9's just like the 109 blocks. I posted the links to the picture guide so the OP could get a better idea whether or not it would be a good investment to get his car going. While there is no boss for the factory drain from the turbo it can be drilled, just like an NA 109 can, The deck height is higher by .035, which isn't enough to worry about, and the mains can be replaced with billet as well as putting a girdle on it. Will it go as fast as a 109? I don't know, but I doubt, if properly prepped, it would be any different than the 109 blocks. Will it be the "original" block for the car? No, but if his car has already grenaded the original engine, it's an option he can find. These are antiques now and the parts are going to get harder to find as well as more expensive, so keeping them going will become harder the longer we have them.

As an option, which is become very viable, the 3800 series II engine offers better blocks and heads and if you read the series II in a GN thread, his first time out with the "new" set up got him where most guys would love to be. He was in the 11's with a stock short block and nothing more than a cam change. If you haven't followed the thread he's already in the 9's and hasn't changed anything on the car other than the tune so far. With the bitching about the early VS the 109 block, I don't know why all of those bitching haven't changed over to the series II engine because it's the better block, and it's still a Buick.

 

[Nick Micale]

...........And I also believe if someone builds an '83 block instead of a 109 they too will make a choice they will regret......................

I do respect you by making that statement based upon your opinion, not what you have experienced, but you also have also dis-regarded how it will be actually used?

Unless I had a bunch of spares, I would not build a twin-turbo engine with any production V-6 block.

 

[2QUICK2B6]

If all Buick V6 blocks were SG1 blocks,I don't think any knowledgeable engine builder would use words like strong or robust to describe one after seeing one for the first time. When viewed from outside of the Buick community,these blocks would fit the description of weak. The two types of block we have here are weak (86-87) and weaker (all earlier). There is a notable difference between the weak and the weaker,or so we assume it's weaker. This difference is easily seen when viewed from the bottom. Because of this easily seen difference,I would guess that the earlier weigh less.

We can countersink the head bolt holes in the deck to help that situation in the weaker and a girdle helps them all. I wonder which blocks would generally fail first when tuned by a very meticulous and experienced tuner that would never allow for detonation. I think we would be surprised to see how equal there strengths might be or,at least,how much power the weaker could safely and consistently make. Then again,this car is all about surprise and has been from the beginning. The biggest surprise is how much power these weak blocks can handle.

I wonder how many blocks would still be with us if they had all had forged cranks in them. I think the forged crank is something that allows us to produce more power while exerting less destructive forces on the block.

Are these blocks weak. In the general scheme of things,I say yes. The question I ask myself is how much abuse do these blocks see that is caused by us or could be lessened or eliminated. I think crank flex and detonation are bigger players here than block choice. I think all of these blocks tolerate more power when they have a forged internally balanced crank in them and I believe this to be the most important part of the mechanical parts chosen.There is another force that a weak block tolerates less than a stronger one and that is the twisting forces that it has to endure when the engine and transmission assembly is held in place toward the front of the engine. This does the same thing to the block as wringing out a wash cloth. A midplate and stock motor mounts would remove this stress from the block. Some Olds guys do this because of their weak blocks. A step that we can all take in this direction is to use the RJC brace and stock motor mounts.

you new to 87 109 blocks ? its easy to go 10's full weight 109 stock.109 blocks have been 9's ? what do u want a 8sec 109 production block forged in 1987... its 2015

 

[2QUICK2B6]

I have an 8 sec motor if u want to buy it !