converter talk Billet lockup vs NL and non billet LU/NLU

[robzombie]

Let's try to get to the truth of why each type of converter has it's place and where.

The purpose of this comparison is to discuss which type of converter would best suit the different uses that we put our TR's through.

From street,to street/strip and moderate street use with a majority of track use.

At what point, ET, HP level does a NL make more sense than a LU/BLU ?

We can and should discuss all aspects of a converters components and what their strengths and weaknesses are as well as what materials are best for each use and where they benefit and hinder from a performance standpoint.

Posting logs and truthful information is of the utmost importance so that everyone that reads this thread gets an honest view of what they can expect from the purchase of their future converter.

As most already know I have a preference towards the BLU because I drive my car on the street more than on the track and truly believe you can have your cake and eat it to with the type of converter I'm using currently when running in the tens and higher.

I will post pics of my converters internals and logs from my P/L and any other data that pertains to it's performance.

 

[Grumpy]

Don't have "logs" but have some time slips. As everyone knows I am a LU guy !!! BUT we prob drive more miles that 99% of guys do here. Up here in New England we have long hills on some of our highways. We cruse @ 70/80 mph on the highway.. I have had both converters. To me if ya do a lot of street driving stay with a LU. My 2 cents.

 

[turbo nasty]

Grumpy were you experiencing too much heat?
What was the approx stall speed and size of the convertor and was it a spragless?

 

[Grumpy]

Grumpy were you experiencing too much heat?
What was the approx stall speed and size of the convertor and was it a spragless?

Billet 9/11 from Bruce years ago. Also run it with a SFI blanket .. Been on since 2007....

 

[turboclam]

Anyone making a good 9x11 anymore?

 

[turbo nasty]

Billet 9/11 from Bruce years ago. Also run it with a SFI blanket .. Been on since 2007....

I meant the specs on the NON LU you tried out.

 

[ZNix]

Don't have "logs" but have some time slips. As everyone knows I am a LU guy !!! BUT we prob drive more miles that 99% of guys do here. Up here in New England we have long hills on some of our highways. We cruse @ 70/80 mph on the highway.. I have had both converters. To me if ya do a lot of street driving stay with a LU. My 2 cents.

I've put 20k miles on my car in the past two years. Still have a lot of the summer to go =D. I love my 9x11 LU but I think I need to loosen it a little for the new combo.

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[Dusty Bradford]

Anyone making a good 9x11 anymore?

The 9x11's were made by TCS in California and they are still in business. The downside to the 9x11 is the stall speed is much lower than advertised due to the 11" portion of it which makes the converter tight. A car with a large turbo may have a good bit of lag. I have restalled several of them to get them as loose as I can get them. I'd rate the loose version at around 2400-2600 stall. If someone wants to lock a 10 second car at WOT this would be my choice. Grumpy uses it in the high 9's and has had good luck with it. I don't feel locking it at WOT in the high 10's is really necessary however. With the low stall speed it should couple well in a 10 second car. Low 10's to high 9's it's getting to the point where it would need to be locked at WOT or if they are using a negative fin angle to get stall speed up to 3000 rpm it will have quite a bit of slip without being locked at WOT.

 

[Undercover87T]

I made the switch to a TCS 9x11 for various reasons and have no complaints. It spools my combo quick on the street. I do 95% of my driving on the street and highway so I really didn't want to give up lock up. They will handle 700hp+ and are one of the few that can lock at WOT.

 

[bison]

Enough with the yapping. Post up some data for these BLU equipped beasts. I don't want to hear about cars that are running 11's with 62 turbos either. 10.80 or faster and post how your converter is performing. We know how the 9x11's react on the street and strip and we know how a fin 9.5" PTC reacts(even though some of its performance was reported as "not possible" in a similar thread)"we know how an AC reacts. How does your BLU react. Post the details or this thread is useless.


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[turbo nasty]

http://www.tcraonline.com/2010/10/tech-tip-sprag-vs-spragless-racing-converters/

Good info in link on non lock up convertors here with sprag and without.

First off I love the way the PTC 9.5 works and dont want to slam the product like its a epic fail...it gets it done except for back to back races and highway driving and or highway racing at least in my setup.

I have recently found that my new combo (9.5 non lu 3200 stall) and my driving style doesn't work with a spragless since my fluid temps get too warm with lengthy highway driving even with a monster aux cooler
Running 70-75 mph with a 28" tire and 3:42's and the .68 OD has me at about a thousand rpm under stall speed and the temps creep from the slip.
My research leads to spragless equals heat heat heat on the freeway.
Im sending my PTC 9.5 back and getting a sprag or diode put in to counter this. Kenny (owner) at PTC is very responsive in trying to get something to work for me.
After I spent 95o plus for the convertor cant lie I am frustrated but not the first time a part didnt quite work out for me.... I want to get something that will allow racing and highway driving without a lockup...fingers crossed this works and glad PTC is sticking with their reputation and standing behind the product. Great customer service.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

http://www.tcraonline.com/2010/10/tech-tip-sprag-vs-spragless-racing-converters/

Good info in link on non lock up convertors here with sprag and without.

First off I love the way the PTC 9.5 works and dont want to slam the product like its a epic fail...it gets it done except for back to back races and highway driving and or highway racing.

I have recently found that my new combo (9.5 non lu 3200 stall) and my driving style doesn't work with a spragless since my fluid temps get too warm with lengthy highway driving even with a monster aux cooler
Running 70-75 mph with a 28" tire and 3:42's and the .68 OD has me at about a thousand rpm under stall speed and the temps creep from the slip.
My research leads to spragless equals heat heat heat on the freeway.
Im sending my PTC 9.5 back and getting a sprag or diode put in to counter this. Kenny (owner) at PTC is very responsive in trying to get something to work for me.
After I spent 95o plus for the convertor cant lie I am frustrated but not the first time a part didnt quite work out for me.... I want to get something that will allow racing and highway driving without a lockup...fingers crossed this works and glad PTC is sticking with their reputation and standing behind the product. Great customer service.

We will try a sprag but none of us are convinced it will make a huge difference. Our testing hasn't shown a huge difference in the 9.5's like you see in something like a looser 9". I would expect using a stock style cooler in the radiator in addition to the external would be another step to getting the heat out of it. Your repeated WOT blasts while climbing inclines will put a serious heat load on the entire drivetrain. Out of all the converters sold I have never had anyone who has told me they enjoy blasting around cars while running up long interstate inclines. Your honesty will help us work towards getting you what you need. Clearly a 9.5 or 10" lock-up isn't the answer to your issues as they will not run locked in your situation. We'll see where the sprag puts you and I would suggest getting a radiator with a stock style internal cooler in addition to the external. If those mods can't suit your driving style something like a 9x11 that can be locked manually when you want to run the inclines under heavy acceleration may be the only other option.


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[turbo nasty]

We will try a sprag but none of us are convinced it will make a huge difference. Our testing hasn't shown a huge difference in the 9.5's like you see in something like a looser 9". I would expect using a stock style cooler in the radiator in addition to the external would be another step to getting the heat out of it. Your repeated WOT blasts while climbing inclines will put a serious heat load on the entire drivetrain. Out of all the converters sold I have never had anyone who has told me they enjoy blasting around cars while running up long interstate inclines. Your honesty will help us work towards getting you what you need. Clearly a 9.5 or 10" lock-up isn't the answer to your issues as they will not run locked in your situation. We'll see where the sprag puts you and I would suggest getting a radiator with a stock style internal cooler in addition to the external. If those mods can't suit your driving style something like a 9x11 that can be locked manually when you want to run the inclines under heavy acceleration may be the only other option.


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Thanks for your reply and dont want to high jack this thread and side track it.

The OP asked the differences/pros cons, etc and heres my experience with heat...I called and left you a VM earlier today but didnt hear back, I know you have a busy schedule, so I called PTC directly and Kenny happen to answer, nice guy to deal with and was very helpful.

And to clarify on the blasting up inclines and "honesty" lets keep it fair here and show some tact on hinting to lying which I do NOT appreciate!

I dont "enjoy blasting around people on a incline" mind you the long incline I speak of isnt one that would dictate a trucker to use low gear and have run off ramps if they were going down it.

This is just a mild but long incline. Maybe I didnt clarify one the phone but yes I did floor it to pass someone half way up it the incline and simply used that as a example of what I encounter around while driving in general. I dont wake up itching to find a incline and blast around someone halfway up it daily.

North ALA has worse inclines and maybe thats what your comparing them too.

I just bought a big alum radiator with no coolers and have a big chunk of dough in it so trans cooler in the tank is a no go.

And of course pounding on the car is going to heat soak the drivetrain...this I know and I just want the thing to handle...say maybe 2-3 back to back hits and not be north of 240 degrees after the first hit.

My biggest issue is highway driving ..... example like I mentioned earlier......just cruising no boost for 7 plus miles at 70 -75 and my sump gets to 200 and it was 78 degrees out so no way with boost, like part throttle merge, or WOT to get in front a truck on the entrance ramp, etc...just normal driving ....after its already at 200 isnt gonna work.

Cruising in stop n go...sump is around 160...now thats not beating on it ...just driving sane. And I keep it in 3rd gear when im under 50 to try and stay away from the slip heat issue.

This is what I need help with and I appreciate you and PTC working with me. I respect you Dusty and didnt mean to seem like I was slinging mud at PTC or you but do feel as tho its good to have people that may drive on the freeway, hills, etc to know they better have some serious coolers before getting on board with the spragless.

Please give me a call in the AM and we can work out the details or PM a good time to call you, etc. Thanx

 

[Dusty Bradford]

I tried calling back this afternoon but got no answer. I will call in the morning again. I will also post updates here so everyone can be better informed or share their experiences.

I'm a true believer in non lock converters. I've ran the Art Carr, Precision 9.5 in a non lock and several variations of non lock converters from PTC. My 1st PTC non lock was a steel stator 10" that was really quick to the 400 feet but slipped like crazy in high gear. I won a lot of races with it despite being down nearly 4-5 mph compared to other converters. I ran it because the et was fast despite the low mph. I ran it with a simple B&M cooler and never had a heating issue. It was spragless and was not as efficient while cruising as the 9.5 we all run now. My interstate driving was limited to 3-4 hr trips. The 9.5 is also used by many of the drag week and power tour turbo cars, all spragless and I can't say that any of them run a liquid cooler, just external units. So with all the data I have saying there are no heating issues I have to look deeper into the root cause of your issue. Is your trans circulating enough oil through the cooler circuit? Is the rpm vs load your experiencing something rarely seen in other cars due to driving habits or terrain?

What was your issue with the non lock valve in the beginning? I thought it was ran with a lock up valve instead of the non lock valve.

In all the years of running these I have never had a single one puke fluid until a few weeks ago when a customer got hung on the lights for 12 seconds while on the 2 step. It was the second pass in 20 minutes plus all the heat of the long staging. It puked fluid on that pass which could be expected. Sitting on the light on a 2 step can raise converter temps 75 degrees per second.

Our largest segment is street driven performance cars with spragless non lock converters. We have our own ideas of what makes ours work without having to use a sprag. Not all converters can be ran without a sprag but there are those that can do it and do it well. If 99% of the street muscle running our converters can run spragless non lock units there is no reason our Buicks can't do the same. And those converters have more slip at cruise than the 9.5. We will work with you to try and get to the bottom of your issues.


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[turbo nasty]

My number is 786 2002348 and looking for your call.

I tried calling back this afternoon but got no answer. I will call in the morning again. I will also post updates here so everyone can be better informed or share their experiences.

I'm a true believer in non lock converters. I've ran the Art Carr, Precision 9.5 in a non lock and several variations of non lock converters from PTC. My 1st PTC non lock was a steel stator 10" that was really quick to the 400 feet but slipped like crazy in high gear. I won a lot of races with it despite being down nearly 4-5 mph compared to other converters. I ran it because the et was fast despite the low mph. I ran it with a simple B&M cooler and never had a heating issue. It was spragless and was not as efficient while cruising as the 9.5 we all run now. My interstate driving was limited to 3-4 hr trips. The 9.5 is also used by many of the drag week and power tour turbo cars, all spragless and I can't say that any of them run a liquid cooler, just external units.

So with all the data I have saying there are no heating issues I have to look deeper into the root cause of your issue.

Is your trans circulating enough oil through the cooler circuit? At idle with cooler return line disconnected at trans ...I get about 3/4 gallon in about 10 seconds.

Is the rpm vs load your experiencing something rarely seen in other cars due to driving habits or terrain? Not sure but a 1:1 in a 400 or even a GV OD isnt as neg ratio as the 2004r in 4th and of course tire height and final ration will dictate final rpm.

What was your issue with the non lock valve in the beginning? I thought it was ran with a lock up valve instead of the non lock valve.
The issue was I wasnt sure if it was in the pump and if it was left out if it would cause a issue with cooler flow..... pump has the proper valve.

In all the years of running these I have never had a single one puke fluid until a few weeks ago when a customer got hung on the lights for 12 seconds while on the 2 step. It was the second pass in 20 minutes plus all the heat of the long staging. It puked fluid on that pass which could be expected. Sitting on the light on a 2 step can raise converter temps 75 degrees per second.

Our largest segment is street driven performance cars with spragless non lock converters. We have our own ideas of what makes ours work without having to use a sprag. Not all converters can be ran without a sprag but there are those that can do it and do it well. If 99% of the street muscle running our converters can run spragless non lock units there is no reason our Buicks can't do the same. And those converters have more slip at cruise than the 9.5. We will work with you to try and get to the bottom of your issues.


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Thanks for your help

Also, FWIW im running the H7B cooler. I was told about this cooler by a friend with a high 8 second GN as well as some off road guys I know and they have had good luck with it as well.

http://www.transmissioncoolers.us/category/trucool-engine.html

 

[Grumpy]

I meant the specs on the NON LU you tried out.

It's Dustys wiz banger.. It was the tightest he could get it. Drove it last summer. Did work nice till I got on the highway. LU has been in this summer. Have a 9/11 in the Mazda to. Hopefully we will get Melissa's car back to the track in a month or so. Mazda won't make it this year. Needs all the saftey SFI stuff. Blast drivin it with the 9/11. 9/11s are still made.

 

[turbo nasty]

LOL thanx

 

[Dusty Bradford]

It's Dustys wiz banger.. It was the tightest he could get it.

It's probably as tight as Iwant to get it for a Buick app. If I tightened it as much as I can get it you'd think a D5 felt like a 4000 stall

It's adjustable from 450hp to 3,000 hp. If I were to take one from behind a 136mm Procharged big block and put it in a V6, the little V6 would be lucky to not stall when you put the car in drive.

 

[ZNix]

It's Dustys wiz banger.. It was the tightest he could get it. Drove it last summer. Did work nice till I got on the highway. LU has been in this summer. Have a 9/11 in the Mazda to. Hopefully we will get Melissa's car back to the track in a month or so. Mazda won't make it this year. Needs all the saftey SFI stuff. Blast drivin it with the 9/11. 9/11s are still made.

Let me take that converter of your hands! Hate to have it taking up space =P

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[Grumpy]

It's adjustable from 450hp to 3,000 hp. If I were to take one from behind a 136mm Procharged big block and put it in a V6, the little V6 would be lucky to not stall when you put the car in drive.

well we don't put out as much power as most on here . So it is hard to figure out just what guys expect out of the converter. Another big thing with all converters .... 99% of guys want all the BIG parts.. Turbo's, intercoolers,heads, cams an so on.. So now they need a 4000 stall converter. ok nuff rambling here...