Cooling with large front mount.

understood. Things are cold out here as well, but i take the car out driving and it slowly creeps to 195*F, but it is chilly outside so i am fearing that all the cooling mods i did over the winter will not help when summer weather rolls around.

Adrian
 
A single 98' Lincoln mark viii fan moves over 4000cfm, i think its 18".
 
Maybe a dumb question but have you tried boxing in the grille? Atr used to sell a kit and now gns has them. I have an old Atr one that I haven't installed yet. I just can't see a fan in front off the front mount not restricting air flow. I have a rjc fmic a then a huge trans cooler a fbody radiator a stock water pump and the rammchargers fan and have had no cooling issues either. What radiator are you running just out of curiosity? I'm definitely interested in the results of the pusher fan though. Joel


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Maybe a dumb question but have you tried boxing in the grille? Atr used to sell a kit and now gns has them. I have an old Atr one that I haven't installed yet. I just can't see a fan in front off the front mount not restricting air flow. I have a rjc fmic a then a huge trans cooler a fbody radiator a stock water pump and the rammchargers fan and have had no cooling issues either. What radiator are you running just out of curiosity? I'm definitely interested in the results of the pusher fan though. Joel


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No I have not. I didn't pursue this option only because I was having most of my problems at idle or at low speeds where boxing it in would probably not help. Again I tried a lot of things. I started out with the F-body radiator and now have the popular Alradco radiator and saw no difference. I'm hoping that if the fans work than maybe I can start going backwards and revisit the lighter F-body core and maybe eliminate one of the two fans. You guys have to take into consideration what I was starting with. I hade this popular dual fan set-up that I bought from a popular board vendor. Apparently the fan set-up you can buy today use Spal fans where as mine are not. Matter of fact I was originally making a new staggered shroud for the dual Spal fans and when I removed mine I was horrified to see that they were not Spal fans and dimensionally much smaller that what is advertised today. So this leads me to believe that somewhere the design was updated and maybe if I started out with them I would have no issue. Another thing to consider is that I have limited room in back of my radiator. My turbo consumes much of that space. When I designed my own shroud I was able to use a large single and offset it so that everything clears. For my application there is probably even more history that I have forgotten and/or to lazy to type in a already long winded post but the story above pretty much sums it up.
AG.
 
No I have not. I didn't pursue this option only because I was having most of my problems at idle or at low speeds where boxing it in would probably not help. Again I tried a lot of things. I started out with the F-body radiator and now have the popular Alradco radiator and saw no difference. I'm hoping that if the fans work than maybe I can start going backwards and revisit the lighter F-body core and maybe eliminate one of the two fans. You guys have to take into consideration what I was starting with. I hade this popular dual fan set-up that I bought from a popular board vendor. Apparently the fan set-up you can buy today use Spal fans where as mine are not. Matter of fact I was originally making a new staggered shroud for the dual Spal fans and when I removed mine I was horrified to see that they were not Spal fans and dimensionally much smaller that what is advertised today. So this leads me to believe that somewhere the design was updated and maybe if I started out with them I would have no issue. Another thing to consider is that I have limited room in back of my radiator. My turbo consumes much of that space. When I designed my own shroud I was able to use a large single and offset it so that everything clears. For my application there is probably even more history that I have forgotten and/or to lazy to type in a already long winded post but the story above pretty much sums it up.
AG.


That's kinda the problem here ... I am sure you went through all the little things and tried to look at the root cause ... I don't think anyone is doubting you the least bit .. we're all just trying to see if we can shed some light on it from another vantage point ... FOR SURE if the fans you had aren't adequate that would be an issue .. but something is strange here ...

LOTS and LOTS of cars with huge front mounts with no cooling issues ... so wondering if there just isn't something obscure adding to the FAN issues...
I did see a few cars having similar issues and on 1 of them it was the damn radiator cap .. replaced that and all good .. on another car while both fans did turn on .. they just didn't supply enough air as they were not turning to full operating speed due to a electrical supply issue ..

I would certainly think the FAN setup you have now should more than cover the AIRFLOW .. if everything is proper I don't think you should ever get over 200
 
Another $.02..:D
I watched the video. If the paper towel test was done w/ both fans running, I'd say the cfm is seriously low.
Even with the back side fan only, the behind the rad test should have blown that towel back into the engine, in some aggressive manner. Instead, note it is actually sucked back toward the fan.
I worked on heavy industrial engines, where cooling was of concern, in many cases. The inline core tube designs present added problems, in that as the row count increases, those rear rows get poorer circulation.
Fin count was also a concern, in really dirty conditions.
We had expensive air flow testers. However, here's an inexpensive one, that can shed some light on problems w/ car cooling systems...
https://www.zoro.com/extech-anemome...gclid=CJm106a338sCFQ2QaQod-HMNsA&gclsrc=aw.ds
The ft fan has it's own set of "issues".
* Many sq inches of "blocked air flow" space. Relatively hi grill bar count. The motor could have been supported w/ 4 bars of sufficient rigidity. Look at a stock TR fan.
* Creates turbulence on the face of the i/c, and the rad.
Amp draw tests can also help tell how the fans are/are not working. The "real" fan mfgrs should have amp/flow info available. Not pulling the amps, probably not moving the air.
Lastly, we always looked at the difference in op temp and ambient. Ambient + 100* = GTG.

Like I said, just my $.02.:smuggrin:
 
I respectfully disagree with your assessment.


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What do you have in the radiator? If you need antifreeze, then of course run it. If you don't, don't and it will run cooler. Many years ago I did some tests, in summer in MD with the ambient maybe in the mid to hi 80's (I posted the results but I'm too lazy to try and find the old post so these numbers are from memory). With 50/50 water/antifreeze the engine would climb to about 200F on the highway (V2 front mount, stock fan, recored stock radiator, 160 thermostat, FlowKool pump, fan on 170 off 175). Adding water wetter or RMI25 dropped that about 10 degrees, switching to just tap water with a quart of Prestone water pump lube/corrosion inhibitor (don't run just pure water for more than a few hours or you will see lots of rust; if you forget and leave it overnight you will cry) was about the same or a bit better, then adding RMI25 to the pure water dropped another 10 degrees. So going from 50/50 water/antifreeze to water with RMI25 dropped the water temp from about 200 to about 175 where the fan would barely cycle with my settings. Also, at idle and between maybe 50 and 65 mph the temp would go down to the thermostat. Between maybe 20 and 50 it would warm up, and over about 65 it would start rising with the speed. Water wetter and RMI25 gave about the same benefit but the radiator seemed to stay cleaner with RMI25 and our own Nick Micale really believes in RMI25 so I stayed with that, and just add antifreeze in the winter.
 
I like the setup. The shroud with holes will definitely help at highways speeds, most likely won't at idle unless you add flaps.
 
After that 3-4" thickness, the "law of diminishing return", takes over...I think the ADDED performance of those last 2" is less than having to deal w/ more retained heat. Just my $.02....
Law of diminishing return? You aren't even close. The longer the pass the thicker the core needs to get to maintain flow period. If you do nothing but cut the thickness in half you cut the flow in half. Also as far as retained heat you are very far off. If you remember the original problem was he had 5-6psi pressure drop across the core of the old intercooler. Which equates to a major flow restriction. The intercooler does about zero real time cooling during a pass and mainly acts as a large heat sink. Once the core is saturated charge temps rise rapidly. Having a large core at near ambient temps before a pass takes longer to heat soak and will maintain acceptable charge temps throughout a pass. Your response backs our original assessment that this community is stuck in the dark ages on charge air cooling. I'm not trying to be a dick but we have real data and reacted to it. Not a copy of some crappy flowing cross flow unit that was made as big as possible to fill the front of the car.
 
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Request to delete the thread. Appears to be adding no value to the community.
AG.
 
Law of diminishing return? You aren't even close. The longer the pass the thicker the core needs to get to maintain flow period. If you do nothing but cut the thickness in half you cut the flow in half. Also as far as retained heat you are very far off. If you remember the original problem was he had 5-6psi pressure drop across the core of the old intercooler. Which equates to a major flow restriction. The intercooler does about zero real time cooling during a pass and mainly acts as a large heat sink. Once the core is saturated charge temps rise rapidly. Having a large core at near ambient temps before a pass takes longer to heat soak and will maintain acceptable charge temps throughout a pass. Your response backs our original assessment that this community is stuck in the dark ages on charge air cooling. I'm not trying to be a dick but we have real data and reacted to it. Not a copy of some crappy flowing cross flow unit that was made as big as possible to fill the front of the car.

I think Chuck has a point with diminishing returns. But not with air, instead with cooling.

I definitely see you point. And I do agree with your statements in there entirety.

But, If driven on the street, this size must be balanced for street use, no?
Nothing is more bad-ass than a huge intercooler that actually works. But how much sooner can it take to heat sink a 4 inch core than a 6 inch? This information could be useful in making a decision on whether or not an owner wants to go with an IC this thick.

After all, no not-job I know will stay at wide open throttle for more than maybe 4 seconds with a 9 second car on the street.

For those wanting to drive the car on the street, shouldn't they be informed of the specific compromise? Maybe the answer is adding fans? Shrouding? Electric water pump? Or simply a thinner intercooler.

If someone was told they will experience 'X' amount of street increased coolant temps in exchange for 'Y' reduction in 1/4 mile air temps, this would be a solid basis for a smart choice. I'm hoping sooner or later some formula will be defined.

Request to delete the thread. Appears to be adding no value to the community.
AG.

If these questions above were answered definitively, this thread may be of more value than any we have seen in a long time.
 
I think Chuck has a point with diminishing returns. But not with air, instead with cooling.

I definitely see you point. And I do agree with your statements in there entirety.

But, If driven on the street, this size must be balanced for street use, no?
Nothing is more bad-ass than a huge intercooler that actually works. But how much sooner can it take to heat sink a 4 inch core than a 6 inch? This information could be useful in making a decision on whether or not an owner wants to go with an IC this thick.

After all, no not-job I know will stay at wide open throttle for more than maybe 4 seconds with a 9 second car on the street.

For those wanting to drive the car on the street, shouldn't they be informed of the specific compromise? Maybe the answer is adding fans? Shrouding? Electric water pump? Or simply a thinner intercooler.

If someone was told they will experience 'X' amount of street increased coolant temps in exchange for 'Y' reduction in 1/4 mile air temps, this would be a solid basis for a smart choice. I'm hoping sooner or later some formula will be defined.



If these questions above were answered definitively, this thread may be of more value than any we have seen in a long time.
There's not diminishing returns. The core thickness must be increased as the pass lengthens or you drop flow. This isn't disputable. The amount of heat to sink a given mass can also be definitively calculated and is also indisputable .He is balancing his combination. That's why he's using the new fan setup. That was the point of the thread. His old one was inadequate. Shit fans and shit shrouds. A 4" core wasn't adequate with the dual pass for his application. Inadequate flow because of the long pass
 
If these questions above were answered definitively, this thread may be of more value than any we have seen in a long time.

The point I was trying to make in this thread is lost. I was not seeking help from the Buick community but trying to present a solution to a problem I'm having on my own car I know better than anyone else. I don't feel the need to answer to anyone on anything I do to my own car.
 
There's not diminishing returns. The core thickness must be increased as the pass lengthens or you drop flow. This isn't disputable. The amount of heat to sink a given mass can also be definitively calculated and is also indisputable .He is balancing his combination. That's why he's using the new fan setup. That was the point of the thread. His old one was inadequate. Shit fans and shit shrouds.
Yes, understood. He's working on getting it right and he might have found the answer.

But given a healthy system to start, and all things being equal, how much increased coolant temps can someone expect with a 6 inch vs. a 4 inch?

How more often will the fans cycle on and off as increased from before to maintain the same coolant temps?

And with a 4 inch intercooler starting at the same temperature, how much sooner will the air temps rise to the same levels they rise to at the end of a 9 second run with a 6 inch?
 
The point I was trying to make in this thread is lost. I was not seeking help from the Buick community but trying to present a solution to a problem I'm having on my own car I know better than anyone else. I don't feel the need to answer to anyone on anything I do to my own car.
I understand this thread was meant to share and inform. I am curious as to what success you have. And how you did it. As stated earlier, I already understood you had probably left no stone unturned.
 
I'm sure if you had all the time in the world you could calculate the open cross section in the front of the car and through the core and determine every airflow aspect of it based on that flow. You don't want to be close on flow because if you undershoot you will miss the desired effect and have to re-do it. Overshooting a little is common place in any applied engineering. A 3 ton jack can handle 6 tons even though it's rated to 3 tons. There's important reasons to this. When you have limited space and need as much airflow as possible you do whatever you can with the space and tools you have to work with.


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I'm sure if you had all the time in the world you could calculate the open cross section in the front of the car and through the core and determine every airflow aspect of it based on that flow. You don't want to be close on flow because if you undershoot you will miss the desired effect and have to re-do it. Overshooting a little is common place in any applied engineering. A 3 ton jack can handle 6 tons even though it's rated to 3 tons. There's important reasons to this. When you have limited space and need as much airflow as possible you do whatever you can with the space and tools you have to work with.


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I was hoping some day for an answer based more on tests than calculations. And I'm sure in time you will have these results.

Try both types of intercooler on the same 8-9ish second car with a healthy coolant system. Same intercooler construction. Same boost. same tune. One with a 6 inch. One with a 4 inch.

Drive the same route for an hour on a hot day............ Coolant temps? Fan cycle?
Make a quarter mile pass with a 4"............ Air intake temps each second of the run?
Make a quarter mile pass with a 6"............ Air intake temps each second of the run?

I know the results will show improved lower air temps. We all agree?
I think the results will show higher coolant temps/fan on-off cycle. We may agree?

But how much? This makes decision making easier for many. Because we can learn what else is needed to do in order to take advantage of the gains produced by the larger intercooler. And also if mostly driven on the street will we ever see the gains of lower air temps with such short (maybe 2-4 second) WOT blasts.

I can't speak for all, but this info would be a big factor in my decision to go this big with a core.
 
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