Diamond or JE forged pistons??

[BetMinesFaster]

Hey guys, Im trying to finish my parts list so I can start ordering my engine goodies, Im looking for info on pistons, Diamond or Je forged?? Looking for a durable engine with a long life, Will also have a forged crank and K1 rods, girdled with steel caps, please let me know what you think...

Also what ringd seem to work well in the turbo Buicks?? Thanks for the info, Ryan

 

[49-blues]

Diamonds are great! JEs are even better!

 

[turbofabricator]

I have been a JE fan for many years. I just recently purchased a set of Diamond pistons, and think they have a better dish design than the JE's do. Though you can order the JE's in any configuration. The diamonds have a reverse dome and still have a considerable squish pad. I think that is a benefit. The stock replacement JE's are just like the factory dish, with no squish pad.('cept perimeter ring) Not sure of the alloy difference between the two. I feel that JE has a fantastic alloy for turbos. I haven't run the diamonds, yet. The jury is still out on them for me.

 

[bison]

I have 3 different sets of JE's that ive been using in various engines over the last 10 years. All the engines had at least 550hp. They are excellent pistons imo. From what ive seen the Diamond pistons are just as good. Plan on 9.0:1. Go for the company who can get you them the fastest. Its roundy round time so there are usually some delays on custom pistons. You should be able to score a set from a vendor off the shelf for your build.

 

[boostingbuick]

JE pistons are a very good piston. That was my choice and have been very happy.

 

[BetMinesFaster]

Alright, so heres the numbers.....

GN1's 46cc chamber
RJC Steel HG's .030 compressed
Diamond forged 44cc dish

=9.0:1

GN1's 46cc chamber
RJC Steel HG's .030 compressed
JE Forged 48cc dish

=8.5:1

Do these numbers look correct?? Also, What Is a good ring for a 109? I would like it if it used less oil than before!!

 

[Nick Micale]

Most any brand forged piston, made to turbo specs, will more than do the job.

Just be sure you get the proper wrist pin for the power level you plan to attain.

 

[Fab Shop]

Rings

Total Seal rings here. Never had any issues.

 

[turbofabricator]

Total Seal rings here. Never had any issues.

Total Seal brand standard rings are good. Total Seal GAPLESS rings (both top or second) are something to COMPLETELY avoid. The Total Seal std rings are great. The gapless second ring has proven to cause top ring flutter at high power levels. The gapless top ring versions fail MISERABLY in a turbo/supercharged application. (seen it with my own eyes, not just what I've read off the 'net.)

 

[Nick Micale]

Total Seal brand standard rings are good. Total Seal GAPLESS rings (both top or second) are something to COMPLETELY avoid. The Total Seal std rings are great. The gapless second ring has proven to cause top ring flutter at high power levels. The gapless top ring versions fail MISERABLY in a turbo/supercharged application. (seen it with my own eyes, not just what I've read off the 'net.)

We did have issues with the gapless TS rings in the past, but we have used them very successfully in recent high HP turbo engines using some of the late now technology available.

 

[Boost231]

nick just curious what rings where put in my motor?

 

[turbofabricator]

With Diamond pistons, use diamond rings.....because they are a "girls best friend"

That is interesting info about the TS rings, Nick. Most of the high end guys I know avoid them. Darrin Morgan claims that there is NO power to be found in a Pro-Stock engine using anything other than precision bore/piston prep, and standard piston rings. He says that he has tried just about every type of ring made and that, in a running engine, they just don't make better power. (I'm paraphrasing here) They make good leak down results, but don't change power output. Now, we all do not have the capability to machine a engine to Pro-Stock spec's, so possibly the TS rings do help with the usuall bore prep. I would really like to perform a back to back test at the track with TS vs. std ring set ups. Pretty hard to do, though. A good engine dyno "might" conclude something, but it would really be hard to quantify it. I have heard that the rings test good, but if the tune-up is off, it really hurts the top TS rings. Your input would be greatly appreciated. I use to use dykes rings in extreme HP engines, but they have seemed to have gone the way side too. Technology changes so fast these days. Sleep for more than 6 hours and your behind the times.:smile:

 

[bison]

Total Seal brand standard rings are good. Total Seal GAPLESS rings (both top or second) are something to COMPLETELY avoid. The Total Seal std rings are great. The gapless second ring has proven to cause top ring flutter at high power levels. The gapless top ring versions fail MISERABLY in a turbo/supercharged application. (seen it with my own eyes, not just what I've read off the 'net.)

Ive ran both style gapless rings with no problems. Over 600hp too:tongue: .

 

[bison]

With Diamond pistons, use diamond rings.....because they are a "girls best friend"

That is interesting info about the TS rings, Nick. Most of the high end guys I know avoid them. Darrin Morgan claims that there is NO power to be found in a Pro-Stock engine using anything other than precision bore/piston prep, and standard piston rings. He says that he has tried just about every type of ring made and that, in a running engine, they just don't make better power. (I'm paraphrasing here) They make good leak down results, but don't change power output. Now, we all do not have the capability to machine a engine to Pro-Stock spec's, so possibly the TS rings do help with the usuall bore prep. I would really like to perform a back to back test at the track with TS vs. std ring set ups. Pretty hard to do, though. A good engine dyno "might" conclude something, but it would really be hard to quantify it. I have heard that the rings test good, but if the tune-up is off, it really hurts the top TS rings. Your input would be greatly appreciated. I use to use dykes rings in extreme HP engines, but they have seemed to have gone the way side too. Technology changes so fast these days. Sleep for more than 6 hours and your behind the times.:smile:

Pro stock doesnt drive their car on the street for thousands of miles like most of us do. The gapless rings keep the oil clean longer. They need to make max power and thats it. re-ringing 10x a year is not something that we are going to do to keep the max power up. We may only be talking about 5 hp here. But they want everything they can get. I have not seen an increase in power with the different types of rings used either.

 

[Nick Micale]

...... I would really like to perform a back to back test at the track with TS vs. std ring set ups. Pretty hard to do, though. A good engine dyno "might" conclude something, but it would really be hard to quantify it. I have heard that the rings test good, but if the tune-up is off, it really hurts the top TS rings. Your input would be greatly appreciated. I use to use dykes rings in extreme HP engines, but they have seemed to have gone the way side too. Technology changes so fast these days. Sleep for more than 6 hours and your behind the times.:smile:

I agree with most of what you said.

We normally do NOT use the gapless TS rings, only where max HP is the goal and time between tear-down is less than 50 runs.

It would be very difficult to quantify a small increase like you stated, and the extra work is not usually worth the expense to go gapless. I tried it once when I was tuning my engine and it was a disaster.

Yes, a tune being off will not only quickly kill the gapless rings, but will probably trash the pistons too.

Most of our turbo Buick builds are with file-fit moly TS rings. Since we use CP pistons made to our spec, the top ring land is thicker than normal to help fend off detonation.

 

[forcedfedv6]

What About TRW forged pistons how good are they and to what kind of HP are they good for?

 

[turbofabricator]

The TRW piston is a good piston, except it comes with a REAL heavy wrist pin. They do this to make it a factory repalcement. If you replace the pin with a lighter pin, then they will work as good as a JE (in my opinion), but buying both piston set and a separate set of light weight pins, makes them cost the same as a JE or other custom piston. TRW pistons have a great alloy.

 

[vacuum 6]

I agree with most of what you said.

We normally do NOT use the gapless TS rings, only where max HP is the goal and time between tear-down is less than 50 runs.

It would be very difficult to quantify a small increase like you stated, and the extra work is not usually worth the expense to go gapless. I tried it once when I was tuning my engine and it was a disaster.

Yes, a tune being off will not only quickly kill the gapless rings, but will probably trash the pistons too.

Most of our turbo Buick builds are with file-fit moly TS rings. Since we use CP pistons made to our spec, the top ring land is thicker than normal to help fend off detonation.

Nick,

When using "standard" rings in a motor capable of 500+ HP how is the blow-by?

Walter

 

[bison]

Nick,

When using "standard" rings in a motor capable of 500+ HP how is the blow-by?

Walter

Blow by is good for a while as long as the cylinders are round and finished properly. If they are too smooth the engine will make a little extra power at first then it will have a lot of blow by shortly after. Follow the ring manufacturers specs for wall finish. A rich running engine will have a lot of blow by in a short time also.

 

[Alky V6]

Running methanol fuel, oil contamination is always a problem. I use the gapless top rings with great results. I can't say they make more power than a standard ring set. I've never done a back to back comparison. The leakdown tests have always been amazing throughout the life of the engine. While with a standard ring set, the leakdown test will deteriorate over the life of the engine. That can only equate to more blowby and degradation of power. The power level of my engine has stayed very consistent, making me think twice about PMing the engine, even though I know it's probably due. The point is, the rings would not be the deciding factor for the decision to PM the engine.

The leakdown tests have been so HO, HUM with these rings that I go for very long stretches between checks with the same results. Very boring. Leakdown tests with standard rings are a little more exciting.

The oil contamination has consistantly been so minor that the oil I change out appears to still be useable, even after three meets. No cloudiness at all. Anyone with experience burning straight methanol will think that absolutely amazing. I just change the oil anyway to play it safe.

Past engines that I've run the total seal gapless rings in have always inspected good. Looked like brand new. Even after severe enough pre-ignition on alcohol to bend a few rods. No broken rings.

I will say this about the gapless ring sets. The fitting of the rings is more tedious. If the gaps are not prepped correctly after file fitting, you could have problems. Though I have not experienced any such problems.