Eagle Talon DSM cars

[NEARING]

Originally posted by smallv6
Let's sayf you dont care what you drive and just want pure speed and are looking at the most for your money.

good shape Turbo Regal = $7000.00 (six cylinder)
good shape eagle talon= $3000.00 (four cylinder)
Invest $11,000.00 in each car

Regal=$18,000.00
Eagle Talon=$14000.00

you save $4,000.00 with the Talon and get the same results with 2 less cylinders.

Providing the tranny and other various things dont explode.
But hey you could take that savings and get a good tranny.

There are hi 10 and low 11 sec cars on this board selling for around 10K.
I just sold a guy from NJ a clean straight 86-T for $4400 that needed about $1,500 max to be a solid mid 11 sec car.

If it was only about money we'd all have mustangs

But AWD would be VERY fun

 

[GNGSX]

I've had my 91 Eclipse GSX for 7 years and I'd never sell it. My best time is 13.23 at 105 mph with a bad high rpm missfire. I should be able to improve my time with some tuning, but I'll have to wait until I get my tranny back together.

There is a guy with a 90 GSX that comes to the sport compact races at the local track, and he runs high 10's on a completely stock engine except for HKS cams.

My GN is a completely different driving experience. Lots of low end torque, little traction. Eclipse has lots of high rpm power, and lots of AWD traction. I love them both.

 

[smallv6]

Originally posted by GNGSX
There is a guy with a 90 GSX that comes to the sport compact races at the local track, and he runs high 10's on a completely stock engine except for HKS cams.

I find this hard to beleive, If that were the case then all those cars would be 10 second cars including yours.
It costs thousands to get a TR to run 10's consistantly.

 

[GNGSX]

Originally posted by smallv6
I find this hard to beleive, If that were the case then all those cars would be 10 second cars including yours.
It costs thousands to get a TR to run 10's consistantly.

I didn't say his car is mostly stock, just his engine internals. His name is Brett Burch and he lives around Witchita. Some board members may have seen his car at the track, and his quarter mile time can be found here: http://www.dsmtimes.org/awd.htm

 

[turbo buicks]

Originally posted by Randy Greenoe
Buschur built my son's motor for his street car and it dynoed 604 h.p. at the wheels with out not nitrous.

please explain what "with out not nitrous" means

 

[Randy Greenoe]

Originally posted by turbo buicks
please explain what "with out not nitrous" means

Ahh no nitrous oxide was used during the dyno pulls. Alot of the import crowd think that when you are making descent horsepower that you must be spraying. I just put that in there to try and avoid any confusion. He also has two nitrous systems that are going on the car. One system wiil actually use co2 to spray the innercooler and the other is for the motor. mainly for the top end charge.

 

[smallv6]

Originally posted by GNGSX
I didn't say his car is mostly stock, just his engine internals. His name is Brett Burch and he lives around Witchita. Some board members may have seen his car at the track, and his quarter mile time can be found here: http://www.dsmtimes.org/awd.htm

Thanks for the link and additional info. I am just trying to get unbiased opinions here between which car is easier to get to go faster. With a stock 4 cylinder engine and just changing the cams.
He is able to run 10 second 1/4 miles, yet with a TR I have read that you better get a girdle or billet caps.
How can this 4 cylinder engine outperform a 6 cylinder engine?
I have looked at the turbo's they buy as well.It seems they are quite small with little CFM output when The 10 second turbo's for TR's are twice the CFM's.

There is a weight disadvantage for the TR's, But yet the Talon's have 2 less cylinders.

Dont get me wrong I love the TR's, the looks of the car are second to none. They are truly the last of the true muscle cars.
I guess I just dont understand why most kids today that dump thousands of there parents money into those little ricers wouldn't want to truly go fast with a DSM car. Why are they so cheap?
A buddy of mine has found a nice one in Ohio for $1700.00.

I am going to research this more and I thank all of you for the information you have provided me already.

 

[GNGSX]

It's easier and cheaper to go fast with a turbo Buick, but the initial purchase price is more. The great thing about DSM's is the engine is nearly bulletproof. I don't worry too much about knock with my Eclipse. John Shepherd is still using a stock block and crank.

The Talon that I mention running high tens has a Garrett BB GT turbo (FP3065) with the same compressor wheel as the PT-61. What I found most surprising about his car is that he's still using a stock unmodified transmission.

It's hard to find a 1g DSM that is in good shape and hasn't been abused. About half the DSM heads I've seen in junkyards have bent valves. People break a timing belt and don't bother with getting a valve job. They just throw on a new belt.

 

[gnx7]

I've read time and time again that the 1st gen Mitsu motors are the best and then once into the high 11's the pistons should be changed to either '95+ Eclipse style or custom pistons with balance shafts removed in the motor. Add good rods if you really plan to punish it.

Why does thestock little 4cyl make more HP than a Buick? Probably because it can rev about 2,000 rpm higher and HP is function of torque over time. The Buick will make a crap load more torque that is for sure. The cylinder head flows very well in the Mitsu and that can't be said for the Buick casting. Like most 4 cylinders they make power up high and due to little displacement there is little torque downstairs.

My friend with bone stock 98K mile '87 GN longblock with $40 valvesprings, $300 50lb injectors, $800 PTE intercooler, $439 3" downpipe, $50 custom 21* chip (100 octane), and LT1 MAF with Translator, and $900 TE-64 turbo on the dyno running 100 octane and 2 gallons of 116 to be safe....

At 29psi and no detonation and rich on the wideband with the torque convertor locked.
526rwhp........ impressive 4200rpm
but the torque is even better...... 658rwtq 3600rpm!

11.50's@119.5mph he runs in a 3850lb GN.

Also if you look at the guys running NOS on their Eclipses they are gaining 40mph in the last 1/8th.... just shows you they are spraying big time once they get into the higher gears. Still those engines are very amazing but more costly to build than a GN engine I imagine.

-GNX7

 

[TurboGTA]

my damn talon purchase set me back 4 yrs on building a LC2 powered f-body

rebuild went about $3,000 over budget $17 per lifter x16 = ouch

then adding 16g turbo $680 manifold $350

and at the time I was too lazy to do the work myself

now I got a $200 talon with $6,000 into the drivetrain



oh well N east pa so it goes in the snow


and finally bought a TTA

 

[PhilthMonger]

yeah stuff can add up quick with those damn dsm's....just for future reference I got a place that has lifters for about $8 a pop.....and the 16g turbo's are on sale at my friends' shop for $550. I'm a cheap bastard, I actually look far and wide for the best deals I can find. I can send you the links, but I guess you already made your purchases. it's funny, only paid $1200 for my car but have at least 5g's into it just to get it up to par. spent the same on my Buick, as I love both my children equally

 

[smallv6]

Originally posted by gnx7
I've read time and time again that the 1st gen Mitsu motors are the best and then once into the high 11's the pistons should be changed to either '95+ Eclipse style or custom pistons with balance shafts removed in the motor. Add good rods if you really plan to punish it.

Why does thestock little 4cyl make more HP than a Buick? Probably because it can rev about 2,000 rpm higher and HP is function of torque over time. The Buick will make a crap load more torque that is for sure. The cylinder head flows very well in the Mitsu and that can't be said for the Buick casting. Like most 4 cylinders they make power up high and due to little displacement there is little torque downstairs.

My friend with bone stock 98K mile '87 GN longblock with $40 valvesprings, $300 50lb injectors, $800 PTE intercooler, $439 3" downpipe, $50 custom 21* chip (100 octane), and LT1 MAF with Translator, and $900 TE-64 turbo on the dyno running 100 octane and 2 gallons of 116 to be safe....

At 29psi and no detonation and rich on the wideband with the torque convertor locked.
526rwhp........ impressive 4200rpm
but the torque is even better...... 658rwtq 3600rpm!

11.50's@119.5mph he runs in a 3850lb GN.

Also if you look at the guys running NOS on their Eclipses they are gaining 40mph in the last 1/8th.... just shows you they are spraying big time once they get into the higher gears. Still those engines are very amazing but more costly to build than a GN engine I imagine.

-GNX7

This is an excellent reply
Thank you GNX7 for the information. From what I have found out on the DSM boards most if not all the guy's there are highly respectful of the TR's. While they may not like the styling they sure respect the power.

I noticed that the guy's running 10's have tons and tons of cash into those cars and to go faster most are spraying NOS.

Most said that 10's on a street car is not a realistic goal.

Thanks again everybody for all your contributions

 

[1987BuickGrandN]

I would like to comment...if anyone cares.

I've owned three grand nationals, one 95 eagle talon tsi fwd and one 98 mitsubishi eclipse gsx

the mitsubishi's cant take any sort of abuse, these cars are difficult to work on, any repair is time consuming, parts are expensive

i've replaced over 5 cylinder heads in the turbo dsm
two engines (mitsubishi sold me a bad one from the factory)
timing belts up the wazoo
several transmissions

these cars suck,

i bought the 1998gsx for$5600 and it turned into a $13,000 nightmare overnight



if you do modify a turbo eclipse/talon to go fast, dont expect it to last, you'll be breaking parts before you know it (i know this from experience) hell... cars that are driven easy have problems, serious problems, bad crank shafts, bad harmonic balancers, timing belts jump teeth, break, it doens take much to throw off the timing in one of these cars, when its off, your cylinder head is completely destroyed, and the head replacement is will cost you a minimum of $1,000

the grand national can take any abuse you throw at it, it will almost always get you home, this is a grand national enthusiast forum, need i say more?

i've had nothing but bad experiences with the turbo eclipse/dsm

nothing but good experiences with the turbo buick

i love the idea of AWD but if i were to buy anything in the future, it would be a lancer evolution

 

[turbo buicks]

Originally posted by 1987BuickGrandN
I would like to comment...if anyone cares.

I've owned three grand nationals, one 95 eagle talon tsi fwd and one 98 mitsubishi eclipse gsx

the mitsubishi's cant take any sort of abuse, these cars are difficult to work on, any repair is time consuming, parts are expensive

i've replaced over 5 cylinder heads in the turbo dsm
two engines (mitsubishi sold me a bad one from the factory)
timing belts up the wazoo
several transmissions

these cars suck,

i bought the 1998gsx for$5600 and it turned into a $13,000 nightmare overnight



if you do modify a turbo eclipse/talon to go fast, dont expect it to last, you'll be breaking parts before you know it (i know this from experience) hell... cars that are driven easy have problems, serious problems, bad crank shafts, bad harmonic balancers, timing belts jump teeth, break, it doens take much to throw off the timing in one of these cars, when its off, your cylinder head is completely destroyed, and the head replacement is will cost you a minimum of $1,000

the grand national can take any abuse you throw at it, it will almost always get you home, this is a grand national enthusiast forum, need i say more?

i've had nothing but bad experiences with the turbo eclipse/dsm

nothing but good experiences with the turbo buick

i love the idea of AWD but if i were to buy anything in the future, it would be a lancer evolution

well, looks like one vote for the turbo buicks.

 

[87GN_ponykillr]

DSM's are very nice cars, Most of my friends own them as beater cars. The best part about them is MOST of them are AWD and with a few mods are 12sec beaters! I have been thinking about getting one myself but I just can't seem to get away from buying F Bodys and modding the GN, thus the more money I have to play with what I have. Check out
www.DSMEtc.com

My friend is one of the founders of the site, It's a nice site and the guys can tell you just about anything U need to know about anything DSM.

 

[Boost1]

DSM's

Well I just recently sold a 1G talon ,and the car made over 500whp ,and I would say that I would never buy one again. The reason is these cars break alot. The car was one of the funniest car I have ever owned ,but most people do not understand that usually those car are fast because they 60ft's are crazy ,but with a 2600lbs 6 puck unsprung clutch ,sticky tires ,and AWD the car will break, because they do take a lot of abuse to get the car to 60ft. Now being a TR owner I love my car. I would never go back ,and 11k I think is a little in the cheap side to make a DSM go that fast ,and to live. Usually the 1G 6 bolt bottom ends are good to 450whp ,and the 7 bolt 2G bottom ends are good to 400whp. Do not get me wrong there are people make more horse power with stock bottom ends ,but the question is how long does the car live on a stock bottom end?

 

[FlyinGN]

Being a original owner of a 90 fwd DSM turbo and modifying it to the hilt and now owning an 87 GN and it too being modified I can speak from experience from both camps. I loved my old DSM, and it was a very fun car. but very different from the GN. The DSM was small, cramped and handled way better then the GN.. I loved the 5 speed and the car was so fun to drive fast. And top end it would kill my GN.
BUT..
The GN would kill the FWD DSM bad from stoplight to stoplight.. Shifting the car was a crap shoot at best banging the gears gave me a real good chance of mising a shift. The trans was horrible. In fact in 30 k miles I went thru 2 clutches and 2 trannies. VERY weak transmissions for sure. In fact the second trans exploded while driving normally to work one morning. The diff part of it actually exploded and blew a sofeball sized hole thru the case. The DSM engine was bulletproof tho.. It would take way more $$ to made the DSM as fast as a TR too. My clutch was $300, HKS F con and VPC was $3000, exhaust was $700,.. Thats $4000 to run in the 13's street tires.. 12's with slicks. BUT OH what a top end.. wow that car was a KILLER on the highway. Not even 11 second TR's would go from a punch on the highway with me
Oh yea the trans was covered under warranty . thanks God. It was a $5000 bill. No thanks.. If I did find a low mileage mint DSM (first gen ONLY, I hate the secong gen DSM;s) I would leave it stock and just enjoy it as it is..
I know some of you DSM'ers are gonna dispute this but what I tell is FACT not fiction..
Buicks are faster for cheaper.. Period.

 

[Randy Greenoe]

Originally posted by FlyinGN

Buicks are faster for cheaper.. Period.

Spend your money right and tune it and they run good. Here is my proof; 87 T Type,49 turbo.009 inj. 3 inch single shot,volt booster,xp fuel pump,and Reds chip. Against a 90 fwd Talon with a Buschur 16g,Hallman boost controller,Buschur fuel pump,stock exhaust with no cat. Raced twice,once from a roll and once from a stop. Care to guess which car won both times? So like everybody says tune,tune ,tune. The T Type was friend of mine and the Talon is my son's so I know exactly what was done to each of them. Not trying to start a war but just because you throw parts at a car doesn't mean anything. Total investment in the Talon including the price of the car{It wasn't running when he bought it} is< $2000.

 

[RKturbo6]

Well I had an easy 11 sec dsm and now my will be soon 11 sec GN. The big thing is that I was running those times on the talon on regular firestone tires I drive everyday regular 93 octane and no alcky. THAT is the big disadvantage for the TR. At the track and the GN with the sticky tires and alchy or race gas would be the clear cut favorite. Over the last few years I have had several different dsm's and the motors were bullet proof several guys around here running stock motors well into the 11's and even 10's. The weakest links are the tranny and tranfer case. I have never broke a t-case but have went through a couple of trannys. Still the resale value, look factor belong to the TR no question.

I disagree a little bit with the superior build quality of the rare VR4. The one I had seemed to be the same as talon or eclipse I had. Never had a door close not close solid on any of mine or anything. And I think the aftermarket is just as big or bigger for the DSM's. I do agree that for the most part the real DSM'rs are anything but ricers. In fact they poke at them all the time. I love my TR and will never sell it but I am currently looking for another DSM to lightly mod and have around. Got to love that AWD. Even a TR owner.

 

[Nuffice]

I have a 91 talon tsi awd

1st gen turbo awd dsm's MOVE OUTTTT

There cheap and easy to mod the guy who spent 27k to go into the 10's must be on heroin

I have friends who have gone into the low 11's high 10's with less than 12k spent including the car.

these arnt your run of the mill imports these cars actually do perform very well.

and remember
Dont sleep on these cars because you might get your fellings hurt by a "girls" car