Fiscus 8.28 TSO Outlaw

[Quint]

I disagree, cars are already beyond the safety zone with 88mm turbo's, to go 94 would be crazy imo.

I agree with you there Cheeseburger, but honestly, the guys who live to go really fast and push the limits with these stck suspension GN's, do not care much about safety Zones. We just care about seeing what we can get away with, to go as fast as possible, and obviously with out blowing things up:biggrin:

 

[TurboDiverArt]

I agree with you there Cheeseburger, but honestly, the guys who live to go really fast and push the limits with these stck suspension GN's, do not care much about safety Zones. We just care about seeing what we can get away with, to go as fast as possible, and obviously with out blowing things up:biggrin:

BS, I know a couple of TSO guys who care a lot about safety. Although no one has the balls to step up and make stuff mandatory, instead deciding to "leave it up to the track", many think safety is quite important. We are already way past the limit of safety on some of these cars. Personally I don't think many of the NHRA rules are strict enough but that's just me. With Tony already being in the 7’s and Dave knocking at the door, is it time to mandate these chassis’s be 25.1 certified? For the record, I have no idea if Tony, Dave or anyone else’s car is already 25.1.

Art.

 

[Quint]

BS, I know a couple of TSO guys who care a lot about safety. Although no one has the balls to step up and make stuff mandatory, instead deciding to "leave it up to the track", many think safety is quite important. We are already way past the limit of safety on some of these cars. Personally I don't think many of the NHRA rules are strict enough but that's just me. With Tony already being in the 7’s and Dave knocking at the door, is it time to mandate these chassis’s be 25.1 certified? For the record, I have no idea if Tony, Dave or anyone else’s car is already 25.1.

Art.

Art your probably right about the stepping up thing,and NHRA does require us to have the 25;1 cage if you run faster then 8.50, I think, correct I dont think either is running that cage yet, since they havnt been knocking to long, but who knows, maybe so

 

[John Wilde]

SFI 25.1E

Application: Pro Stock-type tube-chassis roll cage; 7.49 seconds and quicker; 2,800-pound maximum

Implementation date: on all new chassis or next scheduled recertification, beginning Jan. 1, 2004
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SFI Spec 25.1E is an updated revision to the current SFI Spec 25.1D with a few small modifications. The new spec limits the maximum total ballast to 250 pounds and implements minimum bolt and tab/mount requirements. The spec also provides the interpretation for the 2,800-pound maximum weight requirement. The other change is the addition of a 1 1/4-inch driver-side kidney bar that has been added in three of the four roll-cage configurations.

SFI 25.2

Application: Pro Stock-type tube chassis roll cage; 6.00 to 7.49 seconds; 3,200-pound maximum

Implementation date: on all new chassis or next scheduled recertification, beginning Jan. 1, 2004

SFI Spec 25.2 primarily affects cars that compete with alternative sanctioning bodies. The SFI 25.2 roll cage contains several upgraded components in the floor, roof, sides, and dash. These specifications were developed so that an SFI 25.1D roll cage may be upgraded by replacing several components of one-inch outside diameter (OD) or less with larger components and adding some new components in order to retain some of the other components that are larger than one-inch OD.

SFI 25.4

Application: Pro Stock-type mild-steel or chromoly tube-chassis roll cage; 7.50 to 8.49 seconds; 180.00 mph or faster; 3,600-pound maximum

Implementation date: on all new chassis or next scheduled recertification, beginning Jan. 1, 2005

This specification will affect many of the slower full-bodied cars in Comp, E.T. cars, and those that compete with alternative sanctioning bodies. The specification is quite similar to SFI 25.1D with a mild-steel option for the material. The sizes of some components are slightly downsized from SFI 25.1D. It also permits rectangular tubing for the floor components. The major changes are the Funny Car cage, floor, and cage-support requirements.

SFI 25.5

Application: mild steel or chromoly; full-bodied car, stock or modified/OEM floor pan and firewall with OEM frame or uni-body construction; 7.50 to 8.49 seconds; 180.00 mph or faster; 3,600-pound maximum

 

[John Wilde]

The 25.3 is going to be the new certification for the heavy street type cars.
It is coming out at soon, I don't have specifics to post on that.

It is troubling how few people know about the rules.

 

[Louie L.]

25.1????.25.1E is a Pro Stock car, full tube chassis car..Ie Pro Mod, ect...


25.5 would be the most sensible for those cars. There are lots of folks that know exactly what the new 25.3 cert involves but refuse to share it with anyone.

 

[TurboDiverArt]

The 25.3 is going to be the new certification for the heavy street type cars.
It is coming out at soon, I don't have specifics to post on that.

It is troubling how few people know about the rules.

I agree John, sorry I incorrectly called the spec 25.1, I can't keep up with the number changes. Either way, a stock framed car with a standard cage that most of us have is only certified to 8.50. This change was made a while ago. I remember my old car was grand-fathered for one cert period but is no longer grand-fathered and now is only certified to 8.50 (vs. 7.50).

Art.

 

[John Wilde]

I agree John, sorry I incorrectly called the spec 25.1, I can't keep up with the number changes. Either way, a stock framed car with a standard cage that most of us have is only certified to 8.50. This change was made a while ago. I remember my old car was grand-fathered for one cert period but is no longer grand-fathered and now is only certified to 8.50 (vs. 7.50).

Art.

Art,

I was not singling you out, sorry if if sounded that way.
What I was trying to say is that it seems to be more popular
to be fast than safe in street car type racing. I am not picking
on Buicks or Buick Racers. On one hand who wants to
cut up a nice car on the other hand who wants to get cut out of a non safe one?

 

[SGRIM]

25.1????.25.1E is a Pro Stock car, full tube chassis car..Ie Pro Mod, ect...


25.5 would be the most sensible for those cars. There are lots of folks that know exactly what the new 25.3 cert involves but refuse to share it with anyone.

Shoot Randy a PM!

 

[John Wilde]

Shoot Randy a PM!

Are you holding out on me again Shane? =)

 

[SGRIM]

Are you holding out on me again Shane? =)

No, but he knows that book as good as anybody and he knows alot of people so... I will ask him tomorrow about it and get him to post something if he knows...

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Art,

I was not singling you out, sorry if if sounded that way.
What I was trying to say is that it seems to be more popular
to be fast than safe in street car type racing. I am not picking
on Buicks or Buick Racers. On one hand who wants to
cut up a nice car on the other hand who wants to get cut out of a non safe one?

I didn't take it that way at all. I incorrectly stated 25.1 without looking at the rulebook that's sitting only a few feet from me. When I sold my TSO car it was for many reasons but one of the ones at the top of the list was I wanted a car I felt safer in. I'm usually racing at least twice a month for most of the year so I see a lot of crashes. When searching for a new ride I had some pretty specific criteria and at the top of the list was a full funny car cage and one that will certify to 7.50 even though I have no plans to go that quick. Although it's restrictive in that I can't really look behind me when even loosely strapped in I feel much safer having all that chrome-molly surrounding my melon!

Art.

 

[turbobuick]

BS, I know a couple of TSO guys who care a lot about safety. Although no one has the balls to step up and make stuff mandatory, instead deciding to "leave it up to the track", many think safety is quite important. We are already way past the limit of safety on some of these cars. Personally I don't think many of the NHRA rules are strict enough but that's just me. With Tony already being in the 7’s and Dave knocking at the door, is it time to mandate these chassis’s be 25.1 certified? For the record, I have no idea if Tony, Dave or anyone else’s car is already 25.1.

Art.

Artie, do you ever think before you type? Some of the stuff you say on the net is really off base and if I didn't know you personally I would really have issues with you. You make reference to me not having "balls to step up and make stuff mandatory" are you for real? Do you have ANY clue at all what the liability issues are in mandating safety rules? Do you have ANY clue what a track pays for insurance premiums and why? Do you have ANY clue why tracks have sanctioning bodies? Do you have any clue what you are even talking about?

Do you think for EVEN a second I would risk everything I own and the security of my own family to "mandate" safety rules for the point series that you seem to have many opinions about with a lack of participation this year?

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Artie, do you ever think before you type? Some of the stuff you say on the net is really off base and if I didn't know you personally I would really have issues with you. You make reference to me not having "balls to step up and make stuff mandatory" are you for real? Do you have ANY clue at all what the liability issues are in mandating safety rules? Do you have ANY clue what a track pays for insurance premiums and why? Do you have ANY clue why tracks have sanctioning bodies? Do you have any clue what you are even talking about?

Do you think for EVEN a second I would risk everything I own and the security of my own family to "mandate" safety rules for the point series that you seem to have many opinions about with a lack of participation this year?

Chris, I hesitated even getting involved with this thread or any Buick thread for that matter because of the excuses. Stating in the rules that a car "MUST" meet all NHRA safety rules is not a liability issue. We can go round and round about this issue all you want; it'll never be solved. You'll want to state "should" or some other non-committal clause, if that is even part of the rules anymore. That's fine with me. If you want to let your class run that fast with just a stock 20+ year-old frame and basic cage that's your decision, have at it.

Art.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

If the cars were running 7.50's at 185-190 I'd lean towards the 25.5 chassis. The cages in Tony and Dave's cars certed to 7.50 just 3 years ago until SFI changed the rules. Does it make it any less safe than they were a few years back just because SFI says so......I'd say no. There's a major difference in a car with a home built cage and one that can pass tech. If the cage's in the TSO cars pass cert to 8.50 and the owner's feel safe running .5 second quicker in them, let them. It's really the mph that SFI worries about anyway. Would this have even came up is Tony ran 8.51 at 176.......Probably not

 

[lazaris]

Good point Dusty.

 

[turbobuick]

This is why, we need to not limit Turbo size to just the 88. There should be a class for stock suspension GN's that want something differnt. Put limits to 94mm, not that any of us would go that high and run very effeciently :biggrin: We do this and I know I am in for TSO any where, any place most of the year. To say you in Outlaw, but with limits, doesnt make sence since all cars are already stock suspension, 10.5 cars? We either want more cars or we dont.

Problem is there just aren't that many of us out there racing at this level and to open up the rules to unlimited turbo size would narrow the number to even less. We have a pretty dedicated group of guys who make many of the races but with breakage, personal and family issues we are often times going to end up with races that have only 4 cars.

Most guys in the class never really wanted it to be faster than an 8.50 class to begin with. The current turbo rule is what it is because of a certain racer/vendor wanting to allow the turbonetics Y2k in and rule changes being made for that racer (that no longer participates in the class) allowed the larger Precision 4788 in to the class. Otherwise we would all still likely be running the old style T4 PTE88 that the class was originally built for and probably running 8.50's and slower.

Now that we have a 7 second car in the class we are going to have to take a good hard look at how we are going to increase participation and I am open to suggestions. Even the possibility of making it an 8.50 index class which has been suggested. What would it take to get your participation all the way from Texas?

 

[Chris Hogeland]

Gomes going 7s just make me want to work harder on making my car faster.
I am seting my car up to run 7s to run TSO next year. runing A index class will kill what TSO has been doing all the years pushing the limits of the cars.If they make it A index class I will have to set my car up to run outlaw class at home.

 

[Quint]

Problem is there just aren't that many of us out there racing at this level and to open up the rules to unlimited turbo size would narrow the number to even less. We have a pretty dedicated group of guys who make many of the races but with breakage, personal and family issues we are often times going to end up with races that have only 4 cars.

Most guys in the class never really wanted it to be faster than an 8.50 class to begin with. The current turbo rule is what it is because of a certain racer/vendor wanting to allow the turbonetics Y2k in and rule changes being made for that racer (that no longer participates in the class) allowed the larger Precision 4788 in to the class. Otherwise we would all still likely be running the old style T4 PTE88 that the class was originally built for and probably running 8.50's and slower.

Now that we have a 7 second car in the class we are going to have to take a good hard look at how we are going to increase participation and I am open to suggestions. Even the possibility of making it an 8.50 index class which has been suggested. What would it take to get your participation all the way from Texas?

Chris, I agree with you and understand what your saying. I am new to this thing (2-3 yrs) and now that I live in Arizona with Jan Moeller as tuner, I am more into getting around other GN's that are wicked fast, but are stock style suspension , 10.5 tire cars. I nver thought I would have the bug to go faster and faster, but now that we are knocking on the doors of really getting "Fear", figured out and running some quick Et's, I want to be included with the other fast Outlaw GN's. If rules would allow me, I'm sure, we could make some races, even in a down economy . I attend the Arizona's Fastest Street car races 4 a year at least, but I am the only stock suspension GN out there in Outlaw, running with the big boys that turn high 7's to mid 8's on a regular basis. Dick Kirney brings his big tire GN out every now and again, since they allow those types in this class, but other then that, thats it. WHen in texas, we had the Clash of the Titans and there where some very fast classes there. I was allowed to run with my turbo and since it was a 6, could use the NOS to spool on transbreak only, which is what I do now. I love these cars, I hate the fact I cannot be in races, unless I compete with the Backhalved monsters in the top gun or I bracket, which I hate! I also know Jan is building a twin turbo stock suspension car. I think there are people out there that would try harder to get in, if rules would losen up just a bit. You know that bigger turbo cars dont always run the way they are suppose , since tuning isnt as easy and boost characteristics are much different. We have spent years trying to figure out what makes my combo work, and now I see the light at the end of the tunnel, that look very bright for some fast, fast et's and MPH. Anyways, thanks, sorry for the long email:biggrin:

 

[Quint]

Chris, also since we do know that fall out does happen and car count is everything in a race, the more people we allow to make the class, just opens up for more people in a class race, even with fall out. I see this time and time again, even in the AZ Fastest Street races. They have had to make some concessions to really get the car count up. Now I know they are majority Camaros, older cars, mustangs, etc, but if we keep everything the same except power adder size, it just brings a new light to Outlaw racing with the GN's, IMO