Forged 109 Crankshafts, What's Worth It These Days?

[bison]

This is why i havent bought one yet... not sure why there's no usa made ones available, i'd gladly pay more for one made in amurrica- i also don't like that vendors sometimes lead you to believe they have some "exclusive" parts and when they show up its the same china specials you can get anywhere.

Let me know when youre ready to order. Any stroke you want. Wide/narrow, counterweighting speciality, journal sizes, you name it. Made in te USA. Don't ask about the price.

 

[haywire4130]

Let me know when youre ready to order. Any stroke you want. Wide/narrow, counterweighting speciality, journal sizes, you name it. Made in te USA. Don't ask about the price.

maybe my reply was out of line and misunderstood- what i meant is why isn't there a middle of the road, usa made, forged crank available for let's say 1200-1500 bucks like there are for most v8 applications? obviously with an endless budget you can have a super-exotic one made to order, and i understand that while the turbo-buick market is a small niche, it seems to me that there's enough people pushing these cars hard that could justify the tooling expense and make a decent return on your investment. i fully understand that putting a $3k plus crank into a 109 block wouldn't be the best investment, i just personally cringe when thinking about pushing anything made in china to the limit, much the same as i wouldn't use certain harbor freight tools for commercial-duty mechanic work, i buy snap-on. i didn't mean any disrespect, and true, i have never personally used a chinese crank so my opinion is proibably void. and my comment about vendors deceptively hiding who makes their parts wasn't limited to crankshafts- on more than one occasion, i've ordered "exact reproduction parts" that showed up and were the same china garbage that i can walk into the "help!" section of the local auto-zone and grab off the shelf. there's nothing wrong with selling this stuff or making a profit, i just believe in transparency.

 

[turbobitt]

maybe my reply was out of line and misunderstood- what i meant is why isn't there a middle of the road, usa made, forged crank available for let's say 1200-1500 bucks like there are for most v8 applications? obviously with an endless budget you can have a super-exotic one made to order, and i understand that while the turbo-buick market is a small niche, it seems to me that there's enough people pushing these cars hard that could justify the tooling expense and make a decent return on your investment. i fully understand that putting a $3k plus crank into a 109 block wouldn't be the best investment, i just personally cringe when thinking about pushing anything made in china to the limit, much the same as i wouldn't use certain harbor freight tools for commercial-duty mechanic work, i buy snap-on. i didn't mean any disrespect, and true, i have never personally used a chinese crank so my opinion is proibably void. and my comment about vendors deceptively hiding who makes their parts wasn't limited to crankshafts- on more than one occasion, i've ordered "exact reproduction parts" that showed up and were the same china garbage that i can walk into the "help!" section of the local auto-zone and grab off the shelf. there's nothing wrong with selling this stuff or making a profit, i just believe in transparency.

I don't think your going to find what your looking for. The next best thing are the Chinese forgings machined in the USA by a competent machinest. They do exist and I have personally used them in my own 572 Hemi build.
Allan G.

 

[Howling Mad]

I have one of the Chinese cranks and the only problem we had out of it was the machine shop had a hard time getting it balanced. Which was the same problem we had with my friends American made crank for his 383.

 

[bison]

maybe my reply was out of line and misunderstood- what i meant is why isn't there a middle of the road, usa made, forged crank available for let's say 1200-1500 bucks like there are for most v8 applications? obviously with an endless budget you can have a super-exotic one made to order, and i understand that while the turbo-buick market is a small niche, it seems to me that there's enough people pushing these cars hard that could justify the tooling expense and make a decent return on your investment. i fully understand that putting a $3k plus crank into a 109 block wouldn't be the best investment, i just personally cringe when thinking about pushing anything made in china to the limit, much the same as i wouldn't use certain harbor freight tools for commercial-duty mechanic work, i buy snap-on. i didn't mean any disrespect, and true, i have never personally used a chinese crank so my opinion is proibably void. and my comment about vendors deceptively hiding who makes their parts wasn't limited to crankshafts- on more than one occasion, i've ordered "exact reproduction parts" that showed up and were the same china garbage that i can walk into the "help!" section of the local auto-zone and grab off the shelf. there's nothing wrong with selling this stuff or making a profit, i just believe in transparency.

The problem is the demand. If there was demand for hundreds of them it would be easier to convince a company to forge a new crank. Then they would need a minimum order. That demand is not there.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Whoa, this thread was dead for days and now it's on page 2.

Questions I've been out of the loop on are,
1) Of the "Overseas" crankshafts available for us, which Vendors crankshaft seems to need the least amount of, "Machine Work"?
I don't mind trusting Vendors but hearing stories of machining .010 on a new crank is something I'm not interested in dealing with on my last 109 build.

2) The knurling issue of, you need it, you don't, what's the deal here and which Vendor sells this crank?

3) Sounds like the JW Flexplate doesn't have issues with sitting flush on the crank flange, is this accurate?

 

[SAMBALLS1]

Look you can ask any builder that truly builds all different sort and models of brand motors, MOST PARTS ARE MADE OVERSEAS! It is the competent engine builder that knows what to look out for and what to do to make a positive correction on any part they get whether it's a crank, rods, pistons, engine, EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE MODDED! We are fortunate to have a source that is supplying us with a product that has been tested and proven to build HUGE power! Anytime you really want to build a high horse power motor, competence in assembly is key! You can buy a 3k crank, and you pay for the corrections to have it done the way you want it. You can spend 3k on a crank and have an unproperly trained mechanic destroy it for you! Building a motor is a work of art, attention to detail and patience. If your engine builder is using plasti-gauge on a motor, you need to really start looking for some else

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Is that post for me?

 

[turbodave231]

Let me add this: I've had several BMS raw forgings finished by Moldex. They are supposed to be one of the best! They screwed up one and I had to send it back for rework. The nose of the crank was not machined far enough in and the lower crank sprocket was not in alignment with the cam sprocket. Anybody can make mistakes.......not just the offshore suppliers.

It is a little more frustrating when you don't have a US manufacturer to help you correct the problems. In the past few years I've bought and installed 4 offshore cranks. One BA from Dan and the rest from Mike at FT......... Not one problem.

 

[SAMBALLS1]

Yes.

 

[EVIL]

Thank God for China?

D

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Oh thanks for the reality check Sam, I haven't been on the boards in a couple years and it's good to know there are new members like yourself helping those of us who've been doing this since the mid 90's what to look for. I'll make sure my machinist has all his plastigauge handy too.

 

[SloGN]

Other than the block and heads my engine is running on China parts............so far 2 yrs and no issues with any of them.


I,m close to 9's. Thanks full throttle for these parts.

 

[turbodave231]

I'm not in love with anything that is made in China. Especially engine parts. I'd much rather pay twice as much and buy a crank that is made domestically. But when the next available alternative is a high dollar billet part that costs 4- 5 times the amount, I can't justify spending that money.

 

[coach]

Ok...lets break it down. First thing is, it's an American designer's print they are following. Next, it's a world wide grade of metal being used. 4130, 4140, 8620...they are the same everywhere. You hear things about cheap china steel, but that is usually when a grade is not specified. Their forges are top of the line. Their equipment is all funded from their govt. They don't usually buy the cheap machinery. So...
1. American design ( I know this to be fact)
2. Correct grade of steel being used...as specified by the design.
3. Top of the line forge, prob German or Japanese
So basically except for Wing Tang Boing pushing the button...and the area of the world it's in...it's practically American.
As long as the forging die is sharpened after the designers specified amount of stampings...and it's finished machined after correct heat treat and cryo'd...it's no different then we would do here.
I've been a toolmaker/engineer for 22 years. I am very familiar with how the Chinese tooling and molding industry works. It's mainly big corp American driven.
When you look at it like that...it makes using one easier.

 

[turbobitt]

Coach,

Based on my manufacturing and engineering experience I partially agree with you statement and think that this is worthy to be noted . The Chinese can't easily and cost effectively get American spec steel. What they do have are very close equivalents. For example, ANSI 4130 would be nearly identical to Chinese 30crmo. I would be willing to bet that all these cranks are spec'd to China as 30crmo. There is significant overlap within the material composition and specs to our 4130 but not exact.
I personally think that there steel are just as good or at least nearly as good as an American steel since I have first hand experience from an engineering standpoint with Chinese suppliers. The key is that it takes the right American company to develop these suppliers to the quality level we expect.

AG

 

[bison]

Coach,

Based on my manufacturing and engineering experience I partially agree with you statement and think that this is worthy to be noted . The Chinese can't easily and cost effectively get American spec steel. What they do have are very close equivalents. For example, ANSI 4130 would be nearly identical to Chinese 30crmo. I would be willing to bet that all these cranks are spec'd to China as 30crmo. There is significant overlap within the material composition and specs to our 4130 but not exact.
I personally think that there steel are just as good or at least nearly as good as an American steel since I have first hand experience from an engineering standpoint with Chinese suppliers. The key is that it takes the right American company to develop these suppliers to the quality level we expect.

AG

There's no way that the steel in those cranks is our alloys. We'd have to export steel to them and that would raise the price a bunch. I agrees that its likely 30crmo. The finished machining is the dividing line. I've had to have several of these cranks turned .010/.010 to clean up the journals. Also heavy chamfering on the bearings and grinding the flex plate flange to the proper diameter. The quality of the machining is most likely dictated by the importer. The harder we squeeze them the more the quality will drop. Your last comment sums it up perfectly. A $450 crank that started with the same forging as a $650 crank. If the $650 crank needs little to no work I'll take that any day over the $450 crank. Fixing these cranks when they're wrong wastes time and money. it's up to the assembler to catch any problems before they are real big problems. Not the supplier or machinist.

 

[coach]

I never said they were using our steel. We hardly produce enough for ourselves. The tooling industry or NTMA as it is referred to, sets the new steel standards. Steel numbers are nothing more then recipes. That's it. The steel they are using may come from their mills, but 1 part iron, 1 part chromium, 1 part carbon, or whatever, is still the same recipe no matter what they call it. Their steel might be imported from Germany or elsewhere. Don't confuse what I said with what a actually know. I know this, when an American tooling company outsources a mold or die, and it calls for S-7 or A-2...when it comes back...it is tested. It is always what it is supposed to be....regardless of what their name for it is. A simple acid drop test proves most steels.
Bison, as for the forgings that need turned...that goes with my statement about re sharpening the die after so many stampings. When it gets dull...you get areas that won't clean up. These cranks will also have way more stress built in them and need to be stress relieved 2-3 times to be safe. In the future...if you get a crank like that...have it annealed and then cryo'd and treated again. Their heat treating and cryogenic operations are years away from ours still.
Basically my first post was to ease the minds of future purchasers being scared of what they are buying. It's not as bad as you think.
Point number one again...it all depends on whether a specified steel type was ordered at the onset. Other then that...Wing Tang Boing will stamp your crank out of "swing set steel", and that's no shit.

 

[turbobitt]

I never said they were using our steel. We hardly produce enough for ourselves. The tooling industry or NTMA as it is referred to, sets the new steel standards. Steel numbers are nothing more then recipes. That's it. The steel they are using may come from their mills, but 1 part iron, 1 part chromium, 1 part carbon, or whatever, is still the same recipe no matter what they call it. Their steel might be imported from Germany or elsewhere. Don't confuse what I said with what a actually know. I know this, when an American tooling company outsources a mold or die, and it calls for S-7 or A-2...when it comes back...it is tested. It is always what it is supposed to be....regardless of what their name for it is. A simple acid drop test proves most steels.
Bison, as for the forgings that need turned...that goes with my statement about re sharpening the die after so many stampings. When it gets dull...you get areas that won't clean up. These cranks will also have way more stress built in them and need to be stress relieved 2-3 times to be safe. In the future...if you get a crank like that...have it annealed and then cryo'd and treated again. Their heat treating and cryogenic operations are years away from ours still.
Basically my first post was to ease the minds of future purchasers being scared of what they are buying. It's not as bad as you think.
Point number one again...it all depends on whether a specified steel type was ordered at the onset. Other then that...Wing Tang Boing will stamp your crank out of "swing set steel", and that's no shit.

Coach,
I been in this industry for some time as well and don't wish to engage in an argument over who knows what. We are probably on the same page with this anyway but just want to add this....
I don't think that one could say it is "just a recipe". I have seen some pretty bad 4140 variants with a lot of trash in the steel that caused premature failure. With that being said, there are obviously different grades of the same material being used such as E4140 for example. When we are being told that we are buying 4340 forged steel crank from an offshore supplier I know better to ask myself that its a 4340 like material grade and hopefully electromelt so there are no impurities like slag or carbide stringers. Fact is that there material cleanliness standards are different than ours and although the "recipe" may be similar, depending on the chief doing the cooking can make all the difference.
What does this all mean - just buy one and don't worry about it.....
AG

 

[coach]

You are correct Allan. I guess it all depends on who's making the steel as to how the recipe is interrupted. My aunt could not make my grandmas meatballs unless my gram possessed her body, regardless of how well she follows the "recipe".
I'll give you the impurities causing failures, but let me say this...GM is a huge offender of this and have been for years. I had a set of Spider gears, that i blew up years ago, tested at Seco Warrick. They are a huge Heat Treat furnace manufacturer in my town. Well results were...they were probably a Model A Ford for 25 years, then someone's claw foot bathtub, until they were melted and mixed with new steel, and made into gears. It was terrible. They were properly case-hardened, but they were doomed when they met horsepower. As daily driver gears...they would live for years.
No worries my friend. Each of our industries work with off shore companies on different levels and have different requirements. My experience with them is just a little different then yours. I'm in the connector molding business. Our steel is purchased in ounces, not pounds...except the mold bases.
Take care and hope to see you soon on my return trip to get my engine.
PM me your phone number since Miguel is no longer there.
Thanks