Forged 109 Crankshafts, What's Worth It These Days?

[turbobitt]

You are correct Allan. I guess it all depends on who's making the steel as to how the recipe is interrupted. My aunt could not make my grandmas meatballs unless my gram possessed her body, regardless of how well she follows the "recipe".
I'll give you the impurities causing failures, but let me say this...GM is a huge offender of this and have been for years. I had a set of Spider gears, that i blew up years ago, tested at Seco Warrick. They are a huge Heat Treat furnace manufacturer in my town. Well results were...they were probably a Model A Ford for 25 years, then someone's claw foot bathtub, until they were melted and mixed with new steel, and made into gears. It was terrible. They were properly case-hardened, but they were doomed when they met horsepower. As daily driver gears...they would live for years.
No worries my friend. Each of our industries work with off shore companies on different levels and have different requirements. My experience with them is just a little different then yours. I'm in the connector molding business. Our steel is purchased in ounces, not pounds...except the mold bases.
Take care and hope to see you soon on my return trip to get my engine.
PM me your phone number since Miguel is no longer there.
Thanks

No problem Coach. Hope your engine is ready in time for you to come out during our nice weather cruising season. Maybe let you take my pig for a spin.
AG

 

[SAMBALLS1]

Mike, I can sense the sarcasm oosing out of your post lol... No pun intended.!

 

[tbone87]

How many cranks really break with a good tune stock or aftermarket and how fast can u go with a stock crank full weight car 1/8 mile

 

[earlbrown]

damn near zero and pretty damn fast.

It's rare when a crank breaks on it's own. Most of the time the crank got breaked.

 

[tbone87]

How fast is that????

 

[SAMBALLS1]

mid 8s?? 1/4 an undisclosed amount of times...

 

[we4Mateo]

mid 8s??

I run 7.24 @ 96 in the 1/8th on stock internals. You can go faster than that still with a good tune.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I'm not trying to stir $hit up here, but here's what I'm trying to get at with this thread.

Say Crankshaft A is from a company we'll call = Scat
Crankshaft B is from a company we'll call = Eagle

Let's say Crank A is finished in the USA
Crank B is finished in China

Let's say for years, Crank A had less machine work needed by your engine builder and this saved you not only money but time. It was also backed up by years of board members and engine builders saying, buy Crank A it's worth it, so you'd just do it. This scenario is ideal for the buyer because.......

You KNEW who made Crank A, where it was finished and that it had proven to be a crank worth the $.

Now where are we today, who's China Crank A and who's China Crank B? Sounds like there's a USA Crank C so that's getting somewhere. In order for me to make a financially sound decision, I'd just like to know what the hell I'm buying and am sure I'm not the only one.

 

[coach]

Well you need to consider this..
It does NOT matter who, what, where, when, or why...about your crankshafts origin. If it fits and functions, China or American finished...it will NOT be the weak link in your build.
I am approaching a dollar figure in my stroker that will get me thrown out of my own house if the Mrs finds out, and my builder...who is one of the top builders...will not tell me anything about the rotating assembly. All he said was "off the record" you better have a fuel system to handle over 700rwhp!!! His next line was this..."You will break your block way before you will break your crankshaft!" Now Bison and Turbobitt both know who's building my engine and they will both back me in saying...He knows these engines.
I have heard that from at least 6 other members that all run 9 sec cars.
Unless your going that fast or building a Stage motor...put a forged crank in and don't worry about it. Your going to drive yourself crazy looking for an answer your NOT going to get.
That is as honest an answer as I can give.

 

[turbobitt]

I'm not trying to stir $hit up here, but here's what I'm trying to get at with this thread.

Say Crankshaft A is from a company we'll call = Scat
Crankshaft B is from a company we'll call = Eagle

Let's say Crank A is finished in the USA
Crank B is finished in China

Let's say for years, Crank A had less machine work needed by your engine builder and this saved you not only money but time. It was also backed up by years of board members and engine builders saying, buy Crank A it's worth it, so you'd just do it. This scenario is ideal for the buyer because.......

You KNEW who made Crank A, where it was finished and that it had proven to be a crank worth the $.

Now where are we today, who's China Crank A and who's China Crank B? Sounds like there's a USA Crank C so that's getting somewhere. In order for me to make a financially sound decision, I'd just like to know what the hell I'm buying and am sure I'm not the only one.

I'm going to speak very general here and make a few assumptions. When I talked to Tom when he was running K1 he had told me that the few companies who offered the Buick crankshafts had all bought the same forging from the same place. This was done because to be proffitable you need to buy something like 500 forgings and have half of them sold before even thinking of making forgings. So for example Cat and Scat may have bought from the same forging house and finished them to there specs. With that being said there are no differences in the raw forgings but the differences are in the finish work. Obviously some companies are better at the finish grind than others.
Keep in mind that the above is an example and may not represent the most current info. When I inquired with K1 Tom he reveled a lot of info and what it would take to be profitable making a Buick crank. This was probably over 5 years ago and things change.
My best advice would be to research whomever you plan on buying the crank from and find out how good the finish work was. Don't accept answers like "it worked in my engine with no problems" since Bison and I have seen engines were people thought there was no problem and we seen uneven wear because of tapered journals do to bad finish workmanship. There are really good offshore cranks out there but they need to be checked and double checked.
AG

 

[SAMBALLS1]

A big AMEN goes out to coach! EXACTLY what I was trying to say! Doesn't matter it's the builder!!!

 

[WIKEDV6]

I'm not trying to stir $hit up here, but here's what I'm trying to get at with this thread.

Say Crankshaft A is from a company we'll call = Scat
Crankshaft B is from a company we'll call = Eagle

Let's say Crank A is finished in the USA
Crank B is finished in China

Let's say for years, Crank A had less machine work needed by your engine builder and this saved you not only money but time. It was also backed up by years of board members and engine builders saying, buy Crank A it's worth it, so you'd just do it. This scenario is ideal for the buyer because.......

You KNEW who made Crank A, where it was finished and that it had proven to be a crank worth the $.

Now where are we today, who's China Crank A and who's China Crank B? Sounds like there's a USA Crank C so that's getting somewhere. In order for me to make a financially sound decision, I'd just like to know what the hell I'm buying and am sure I'm not the only one.

Hey what's up Mike,

We had a Chinese stroker crank in a 109 block consistently running 9.30's 146mph. No issues at all. I would call Mike at Full throttle and get the kit from them. Try not to over think. It's been proven that they hold up pretty well. Another Chinese crank consistently sees 42+ psi boost on E85 and still together.

HTH
Prasad

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Found a Scat crank new in the box still, I bought this vs the cranks GN vendors are selling because I KNOW the name on the crank and have an idea of its finishing qualities. Why there's so much unknown on these cranks is just odd to me, but it backfired on getting this sale.

I hear you guys on the cranks strength, but this thread was more about buyer knowledge of the product you're going to spend $650 to $1000+ on.

Lets take the FINISHING aspect, why spend more for your builder to finish a new crank if you don't have too right, you'd always pick the one with the least amount of work needed. Problem is, no one has brought up where any of the Chinese cranks are finished, it's clear the vendors are tight lipped here and everyone kind of seems ok with that. No prob, but I spent more $ because I knew what I was getting.

To help those doing future builds, why not start with having a Vendor inform us of the country their crank is finished in??
This will help sales because if Vendor A crank needs little work and you know where it's being finished, you'd just buy their's vs tight lipped GN Vendor B who sells the same crank but you have no clue. This seems obvious, no one likes being in the dark when spending $.

Hey Prasad, our buddy Tommy had a few Scats laying around and he was willing to part with one.

 

[coach]

Great point. Vendors would do better to state where crank is finished. But...I know my builder would rather get a crank that he needs to finish instead of making other things fit around it. Final fit and assembly is what sets builders apart. Anyone can bolt things together. It takes skill to assemble a killer engine that will hold up. Engine tolerances are set according to the growth of the steel or iron being used. Bore clearances are set to tolerances for cast iron and crank and rod are set to forged steel growth. Your builder chooses a specific operating temperature he would like to see the engine run at. I know the builder in my town tells street guys no cooler then 170 or it contributes to premature wear of certain parts.
Long story short...your builder should tweak the crank to his needs, not expect it to come in the door finished. I know our local builder usually takes every overseas crank and annealed it and re-heat treats it to his requirements and re polishes it. Mostly big block strokers kits. He doesn't do our engines, that's why mine is at a different builder.

 

[Mike Licht]

Does it really matter where it was finished or does how it was finished matter? Do you really know where your Scat was finished? Many of the "name" companies are finishing their products off shore now. Most JE pistons are made at Wiseco now that they are the same company, yet I know plenty of folks that will tell you JE is better, they own K1 too and do not finish the rods here anymore. This is why we switched to Molnar Rods (they guy who started K1) the K1 quality dropped off some. In the end we all just want to have a good product to buy and sell, no vendor wants to sell a product that people have problems with it just makes it hard for everyone. Whenever we can we try to react and fix problems as they arise. Here is one thing I can say, if you buy a crank from us and are not happy send it back unused, unmodified and unmolested and we will simply give you a refund, no problem.
Mike

 

[Nick Micale]

Does it really matter where it was finished or does how it was finished matter? Do you really know where your Scat was finished? ...........

This statement by Mike really is the final word about the China cranks as I do not know of any reputable engine build that has had major issues with these cranks.

We have installed about 100 of them and only in some cases do we need to perform some minor clean up like is done with all aftermarket cranks, even from Buick when they were available.

The comment Coach made is also pertinent here: "...your builder should tweak the crank to his needs, not expect it to come in the door finished."

As much as I favor USA made products, we should be very grateful we have an excellent crank available at a reasonable price to replace our weak cast ones.

 

[DR BOOST]

now that we are forced to use chinese cranks, we have become picky about "how chinese" they are lol.

Mike, if you have a good engine builder, you will never need know how good or bad the machining was . That is for him to worry about.

 

[turbobitt]

This statement by Mike really is the final word about the China cranks as I do not know of any reputable engine build that has had major issues with these cranks.

We have installed about 100 of them and only in some cases do we need to perform some minor clean up like is done with all aftermarket cranks, even from Buick when they were available.

The comment Coach made is also pertinent here: "...your builder should tweak the crank to his needs, not expect it to come in the door finished."

As much as I favor USA made products, we should be very grateful we have an excellent crank available at a reasonable price to replace our weak cast ones.

Well, I really didn't want to get pulled into a big debate over this subject but I respectfully dissagree. What your trying to tell us is that we should simply expect to "Tweek" these to our own liking and not to expect them finished as delivered. I can tell you from the example stated above that Tom Molnar wouldn't ever expect one of his buget cranks or rods to be finished machined after he sent it out. Matter of fact I know first hand that he knew where in the "spec" range most engine builders wanted to see there finished product and thats where he made it. He obviously not happy wuith the direction K1 was going and started his new company.
Point being that we should hold ourselves to a higher standard and not just accept the status quo. We should always double check everything but to rework a new part simply because of poor workmanship is unacceptable to me and should be to others.

AG.

 

[broke]

my chinese crank was purchased from a vendor on this board.........i will quote my old a$$ picky machinist"damn nice piece". Just needed to be drilled to add a little weight,polished,and balanced. Alot better than most he sees.

 

[turbobitt]

my chinese crank was purchased from a vendor on this board.........i will quote my old a$$ picky machinist"damn nice piece". Just needed to be drilled to add a little weight,polished,and balanced. Alot better than most he sees.

And thats the way it should be, and what we should expect from a finished product.
Allan G.