fwd roller and non roller cam parts in gn motor w/pictures

[Blazer406]

2 thousandths of an inch should be about the upper limit for rod and main clearance (but you better look it up). Don’t forget to check the crank thrust play. These engines seem to chew up the cranks rather than the bearings.

Make sure your idle speed is high enough. I think these engines spec’ed at 40 PSI @ 2500 RPM (better look that up also) as the pumps just can’t pull oil out of the pan at low speeds.

If you’re changing bearings; I think 350 Buick rod bearings will fit; but are a little wider than the 231 (yep; look that up also; there may be a listing for V-6 HD bearings). If the thrust surface is eat-up; you can get an oversize bearing for that; but it requires the crank coming out. It will come out the bottom; but I don’t recommend it. Pulling the engine is easier. If the crank is out; rather than cut it for an oversize thrust; you could get it built up for not much more money.

IMHO... the thrust is likely fine... I haven't even driven the car since I fired the fresh rebuild up...only has about an hour of run time now...

I am changing the oil tonight to 20w50 and fixing my cooling fan issue (they aren't coming on until 205 deg...... If I can get the cooling issue resolved... and the thicker oil.... I probably will have adequate pressure. I'll report back later tonight probably....

 

[Lee Thompson]

couple ideas

Since your pressure jumps great when throttle is increased. (as it should with the HV kit and booster plate).
Before I tore into the eng.
Knurl the gears as I suggested
Use plastigage and set the gear to cover as tight as possible.
Remove all your adj. screws for the roller rockers.
Clean with laquer thinner (the oil hole in screw)
JB weld them closed and then drill both holes to .030
If that fails, shot it.

 

[joe_schindler]

IMHO... the thrust is likely fine... I haven't even driven the car since I fired the fresh rebuild up...only has about an hour of run time now...

Like the old saying; "measure twice, cut once." You don't really know where the hole is till you look.

 

[Blazer406]

Well...I got my fans working... they now cut on at 168 deg or so....so the engine never gets above the low 170's.... The fan relay electrical connector must have gotten pulled some when installing the engine... or the hydroboost... cause it wasn't plugged all the way in. Once I plugged it in.... the fans went to cutting on like they are supposed to.

I also changed the oil to 20W50.

A combination of the both yielded IMHO great results... I let the engine get up to operating temp... until the fans came on..... then cycled off..... the back on...... I let it do this 3-4 times while sitting in the garage idling.....lowest oil pressure I saw was just below 20 psi...:biggrin: touch the throttle... oil pressure goes to 60 psi +.

I'm happy....

I'll hopefully get to drive the car tomorrow night.... after I get the brakes woking...

I'll update after I drive it...

 

[87buickracer]

Well...I got my fans working... they now cut on at 168 deg or so....so the engine never gets above the low 170's.... The fan relay electrical connector must have gotten pulled some when installing the engine... or the hydroboost... cause it wasn't plugged all the way in. Once I plugged it in.... the fans went to cutting on like they are supposed to.

I also changed the oil to 20W50.

A combination of the both yielded IMHO great results... I let the engine get up to operating temp... until the fans came on..... then cycled off..... the back on...... I let it do this 3-4 times while sitting in the garage idling.....lowest oil pressure I saw was just below 20 psi...:biggrin: touch the throttle... oil pressure goes to 60 psi +.

I'm happy....

I'll hopefully get to drive the car tomorrow night.... after I get the brakes woking...

I'll update after I drive it...

Good to hear that your engine is performing well with the 1.65 rockers..
I'm waiting on the swing out kit to come to finish the roll cage..
I will also run roller rockers after putting some miles on the motor and getting everything on the car I need.It seems like my parts list just keeps growing and growing and growing..(lol) Keep us posted..Thanks..

 

[Blazer406]

Fyi

Trying to track down a low oil pressure issue..... I decided to mock up a couple of the 60 deg V6 lifters in my spare block....and a FullThrottle 210/215 hyd roller cam and do some measurements.....

My main concerns were:

1.) The lifter when riding on the base circle of a cam..... the flats that are machined into the lifter body......they would fall down into the oil port and allow the oil to shoot up the lifter bore in the area of the lifter where the flats are......

I measured the oil port was .800 down from the top of the lifter bore. I measured the dimension from the beginning of the flat machined into the lifter body to the top of the lifter body is .590" . On the base circle.... the top of the lifter stuck .190 out of the bore..... do some math..... it is .400 from the top of the oil port to the bottom of the flat..... so there is no way the oil pressure can get to this flat to bleed off oil pressure.

2.) The lifter flat.... where it starts.... on the lifter body...... could theoretically contact the dogbone if the lift was enough. I measured the lifter on the base circle was .190 sticking out of the bore.....and the flat was .590 overall height...... this yielded .400 down to the edge of the flat... where it starts.... So at this point..... if my LOBE lift was .400 or over.... it would hit the dogbone......

In this case..... on a 210/215 cam... the lobe lift is: .333. So..... by my measurements on a 210/215 FT cam...... it is .066 away from hitting the dogbone.... so it does clear.....my actual cam I am currently running has .356 lobe lift.....assuming same base circle (IMHO is is likely slightly smaller)...it would still clear by 0.044" ....... 44 thousandths....(sp?)

So it appears I am good.

Hopefully this might help someone else......

 

[87buickracer]

fwd roller parts in gn motor(up-date)

My car should be back from bodyshop this week..Had to special order a couple of custom bars for roll cage..Soon as I get it back I will be putting in motor and 400 tranny to get measurements for custom drive shaft..Want to have it done asap,to post results..Hey Blazer, keep up the good work..Hope to see you post some track times soon..I can't wait to hit the track myself..
will have some more pictures soon once engine is in and running..

 

[TurboBob]

Trying to track down a low oil pressure issue..... I decided to mock up a couple of the 60 deg V6 lifters in my spare block....and a FullThrottle 210/215 hyd roller cam and do some measurements.....

My main concerns were:

1.) The lifter when riding on the base circle of a cam..... the flats that are machined into the lifter body......they would fall down into the oil port and allow the oil to shoot up the lifter bore in the area of the lifter where the flats are......

I measured the oil port was .800 down from the top of the lifter bore. I measured the dimension from the beginning of the flat machined into the lifter body to the top of the lifter body is .590" . On the base circle.... the top of the lifter stuck .190 out of the bore..... do some math..... it is .400 from the top of the oil port to the bottom of the flat..... so there is no way the oil pressure can get to this flat to bleed off oil pressure.

2.) The lifter flat.... where it starts.... on the lifter body...... could theoretically contact the dogbone if the lift was enough. I measured the lifter on the base circle was .190 sticking out of the bore.....and the flat was .590 overall height...... this yielded .400 down to the edge of the flat... where it starts.... So at this point..... if my LOBE lift was .400 or over.... it would hit the dogbone......

In this case..... on a 210/215 cam... the lobe lift is: .333. So..... by my measurements on a 210/215 FT cam...... it is .066 away from hitting the dogbone.... so it does clear.....my actual cam I am currently running has .356 lobe lift.....assuming same base circle (IMHO is is likely slightly smaller)...it would still clear by 0.044" ....... 44 thousandths....(sp?)

So it appears I am good.

Hopefully this might help someone else......

any additional updates?

Bob

 

[Walt03]

BLAZER406 Will you be at BG this year?
How can I find you to asksome questions??

I'm about to drill the block and tap.
Thx
Walt

 

[Blazer406]

BLAZER406 Will you be at BG this year?
How can I find you to asksome questions??

I'm about to drill the block and tap.
Thx
Walt

Unfortunately no. I had plans to.... even had a hotel room reserved...... but got moved up (about a week and a half ago) to a different position at work and really couldn't leave... Made me sick.

 

[Blazer406]

any additional updates?

Bob

Well.... pulled the engine... checked the rods and mains with plastigage.....ended up being too loose.... mains were:

.003
.003
.003
.0035

Rods averaged .0025 (one was a little tighter than .002 ... but most fell between .002 and .003)

I got a set of .001 oversized mains and had them coated. I got 2 sets of rod bearings... one set of .001 bearings... and one set of standard bearings... and had bot of those coated.

I then installed the .001 coated mains (w/o removing crank) and mix/matched the rod bearings to get between .0015 ad .002 rod bearing clearance.

I re-plastigauged everything and put it back together. Got it in the car a week or so ago... and fired it up last Sunday...... still got the same issue.... low to no oil pressure hot idle....

I'm fairly frustrated at this point. I have a massive internal oil leak/hemmorage somewhere.... I am probably going to pull the motor again this weekend... and rig something up to prime the engine without the intake on.... or the valve covers.... or the oil pan.... ought to be interesting.... got to find the leak.

On a side note... car runs fine... caught second gear the other night with the stock turbo on it.... on a part throttle short snort....at <15 psi boost.... :biggrin:

I can't wait to start driving this car again.....

 

[JDEstill]

Several years ago I rigged up something pretty simple to check for where I was losing oil pressure. I pulled the timing chain cover off. I made a little plate that blocked off the passages at the front of the block, and rigged up something to connect a garden hose to the oil pressure sender port. Then I just hooked up the hose and turned on the water, leaving cam, crank, etc in place. I wasn't too worried about the water causing rust or anything because I was about to disassemble it all anyway. Come to think of it, I might have also blocked the mains by putting a little plastic wrap on the bearings and setting the crank back down on it. That kind of rings a bell, I bet I did that.

In my case I had a surprisingly large hemorrhage between the #1 cam journal and the bearing. I say surprising because the cam bearing wear didn't look too bad to my eyes, but it sure did leak like a muther. Not much water leaked from anywhere else. That experiment is what convinced me to start using better quality cam bearings and trying to use a cam with no groove on the #1 journal. It also led me to replacing just the #1 cam bearing the next time I saw some wear there (when I was swapping cams again), which then led to something like a 5 psi increase in idle oil pressure.

Another guy here in Houston had his machine shop do essentially the same experiment after losing 3 rebuilds, and they found a big leak between the block and the #1 cam bearing. They bored or honed his block and put in oversized cam bearings (no idea where they got those!) and he finally got a motor that lived.

It was a real easy test to set up. The little plate I made to block off the front of the block was real thin stuff, I just cut it out from some sheet metal, and used a little RTV when I bolted it on. It doesn't have to seal perfectly, though I think mine did.

John

 

[turbofabricator]

It is probably just a simple gallery plug that has popped out, either all the way or partially. Look behind the cam gear. Pretty common. If you pull the engine, tap it and install the special pipe plugs that TA sells for a few bucks. Go REAL slow with the pipe tap, though. You DON'T want to tap too deep. Pipe plugs are tapered (but everyone knew that, of course) and if you go too deep with the tap, the plug will end up blocking the oil gallery on the passenger side of the block. The drivers side can be threaded real deep. Also it sounds like the time to re-do the oil pump or at least verify the thrust clearance. I "try" to keep the pump end clearance at .0005"-.0015" (five ten thousandths to one and a half thousandths) TA sells pump shims (gaskets) that really help.

 

[joe_schindler]

....Then I just hooked up the hose and turned on the water, leaving cam, crank, etc in place. ....
John

That's not a bad idea; but it would require cleaning out the lifters (if hydraulic) if you're going to reuse them. I had a similar deal with a block I bought. The previous owner had drilled out the passages from the mains to the cam for better oil flow. He got the #2 hole shifted a little to the rear and the cam bearing didn’t cover it all the way. The hole was big enough I could find it with compressed air to the system. I just beat the bearing further into the bore and covered the passage.

Another place to check is rod to crank side clearance. This can cost you a lot of oil.

And; I’ll repeat that these engines are hard on the thrust bearings. The cranks get worn; but it’s hard to notice; and the clearance isn’t always checked.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Blazer406]

That's not a bad idea; but it would require cleaning out the lifters (if hydraulic) if you're going to reuse them. I had a similar deal with a block I bought. The previous owner had drilled out the passages from the mains to the cam for better oil flow. He got the #2 hole shifted a little to the rear and the cam bearing didn’t cover it all the way. The hole was big enough I could find it with compressed air to the system. I just beat the bearing further into the bore and covered the passage.

Another place to check is rod to crank side clearance. This can cost you a lot of oil.

And; I’ll repeat that these engines are hard on the thrust bearings. The cranks get worn; but it’s hard to notice; and the clearance isn’t always checked.

Good luck,

Joe

I checked my crank endplay.... it was 0.005. I could force it another .010... (for .015 total) but when I took the prybar out... it settled back at the .005...

 

[mikestertwo]

My son had this problem and it turned out to be the rear cam bearing was not pressed in far enough leaving the feed hole uncovered.

 

[joe_schindler]

I checked my crank endplay.... it was 0.005. I could force it another .010... (for .015 total) but when I took the prybar out... it settled back at the .005...

Unfortunately; you need to use the pry-bar numbers. You probably have a grove that is worn into the thrust surface while the crank is spinning. When it is still and without oil; the crank settles a little in the block; and gives you a little bit of a lip that will just catch the thrust bearing. When you really push; you’re getting that extra 0.010 inch. You’re probably putting about 100 to 150 pounds of load with the pry-bar. That’s a lot less load than a running engine will put on the crank and bearings. 150 or even 300 pounds of force is not going to compress a crank 0.010 of an inch.

Pull the thrust cap and check to see that the crank doesn’t have an indentation (wear surface) where the thrust bearing of that main rides on it. If it’s 0.010; you should be able to feel it with your finger. If the thrust bearing is worn down to the copper; you’ve probably found trouble.

 

[Blazer406]

Well.... the first time the motor was run.... it had the uncoated std bearings in it...ran it for about 30 miles and about an hour maybe idling... pulled it because of the oil pressure issue.... put the new .001 coated mains in it.... inspected the std uncoated ones I pulled out... there was one fairly light scratch or scuff on one of the thrust faces... that was all..... the measurements I gave above was after installing the new .001 coated main bearings before I ever ran it.....so nothing was worn at that point....

 

[joe_schindler]

It won't matter how new the bearing are; if there's a groove cut in the crank; you’ll have too much end play. You may actually have more than you think if the rods are binding up and keeping the crank from moving some when you measure.

I’ve seen crank shops miss the thrust surface when they grind a crank; especially if they have an inexperienced machinists running them.

I’ve seen in the Buick V6 book that running a tighter clearance on the thrust can be a 30 PSI difference in oil pressure.

These engines have a pretty weak oil system to begin with; and it doesn’t take much to drop the pressure.

 

[87buickracer]

gn fwd parts

Finally got car back from bodyshop with 8pt cage with swing out kit..looks awesome..I will be installing motor last week of month with 2004r to drive on the street to break in before I swap to 400 tranny and take the car back to bodyshop for paint job..Hope to have some results next month if all goes well..
I have my bearings set at .002 with oil pump booster plate and 60lb spring..I have run this set up on my other motors with no issues in the past.Blazer406 I feel your pain..When my engine was at the machineshop,I had all the cam bearings done with brass freeze plugs..even on a mild fresh up job I change the cam bearings..just standard practice for me from past experience and the bearings are pretty cheap compared to the others..