fwd roller and non roller cam parts in gn motor w/pictures

[charlief1]

That's why I asked. Didn't think it would work but I was just curious.

 

[rwcarnut]

subscribed.....

 

[mikestertwo]

I finally got the motor fired up :biggrin: Runs real smooth, no funny noises I'll get it broken in and let everyone know if there are any issues.

 

[liquidh8]

Awsome, keep us posted. This looks to be a summertime upgrade for. I am not driving the Buick everyday yet so I would love to do this. I'll have to read back on the whole thred and gather a complete parts list, to include the pushrod length. Great job!

 

[clusolynn]

Thanks for the info!

I've gotten everything but the pushrods thanks to the information from this thread. Waiting on machine shop for block. Thanks again, John Lynn.

 

[TurboBob]

We need to devise a retention method for the spider that does not require drilling and tapping the block. So these can be retro-fitted without a teardown.


Anyone have any ideas?

Bob

 

[liquidh8]

I was thinking if mounting it to the bottom of the intake. You could fab some stand offs from the spider, to stick up and mount to the intake. Only issuse is if using the intake gaskets with the valley pan in it.

You could also drill the hole in the block, but not clean through. Use a bottom tap to put a few thread, then epoxy studs in there so the don't come out. And use nylocks to hole the spider on the studs.

A few alternate ideas.

 

[liquidh8]

So, we need.

Lifters from a 60 degree GM V6 2.8L - 3.1L - 3.4L-3100-3400

Use the retainer and bones out of a FWD 3.8 with roller cam (1986/87 Vin "3" 3.8 roller was mentioned)

Aftermarket Rollercam and cam button. (COMP)
Comp Cams 258HR ($250ish) works with the stock replacement timing chain, works with the cam sensor

Stiff enough springs to support the roller cam. Comp beehives, LS chevy springs. (I have ls6 springs left over from a motor build that are the same size as the comps)

87buickracer said:

ok folks,here it is.The part number for the pushrods is sealed power #rp 3253 and melling # mpr-309-B. length is 8.471".For high horse power applications I would use the comp cams 8.500" with adjustable roller rockers only.For non-adjustable stock and heavy duty stock rockers non-adjustable use 8.471"(rp3253 or mpr-309-B).At your local parts store you want the pushrods for a 1986 buick lesabre 3.8 v6 engine with vin code "B" as in Boy.This is the flat tappet cam motor pushrods,not the roller cam motor.Or if you have the money,just have comp cams make you a set of custom chrome moly pushrods 8.471".You can also vary the length a little depending on the thickness of your head gaskets and if your running adjustable roller rockers.So good luck to you guys and lets get some feed back on this set-up once we get the motors running.I know I can't wait to get mine fired up with my dual pump set-up.

You also said something about using 8.500 inch pushrods. Woulnd this increase the preload on the lifters when using non-adjustabl stock rockers. Then again, if it is a little long, you could shim the rocker shaft a few thousanths.

Custom length pushrods.


Sound about right so far?

please add or correct to the list. Can the dog bones be used from the donor mor, i.e., 60 degree V6? Does the reatining plate have to be from the 3.8 FWD (I would guess yess to fit the valley).

Thanks guys

I'll be going to the u-pull-it in a few weeks, wanna get my list strait.

 

[mikestertwo]

Can the dog bones be used from the donor mor, i.e., 60 degree V6? Does the reatining plate have to be from the 3.8 FWD (I would guess yess to fit the valley).
Thanks guys

The dog bones and retainer have to come from a front wheel drive 3.8 I got mine from a 87'

 

[liquidh8]

Cool, I'll re-edit my last post of parts.

 

[Walt03]

How about using adjustable push rods with the stock rockers ( 1.55). Shouldn't these work and give good adjustability?

 

[liquidh8]

Can you run adjustable pushrods all the time?? Never looked into something like that.

 

[turbofabricator]

Adjustable pushrods are run all the time.

Bob,
How about building a retention system that utilizes the holes in the top of the 109 block. Those holes don't need to be there anyway. The system would be kinda like a moly bolt for hanging stuff on drywall. Simple to build and would work fine. (I've seen Billy Maze hang 4,000 van on his wall with one. ):biggrin:

When I get some spare time, I can whip something up, but THAT won't be for quite awhile. Moving and finishing existing projects will keep me up for 30 hrs/day for the next month or so.:frown:

 

[joe_schindler]

You can run adjustable push rods in an engine. They are inherently heavier and weaker than a non-adjustable rod of the same tube diameter. They would not be the first choice for a performance engine.



As for the holes in the lifter gallery; they aren’t completely necessary; but do provide oil return to the pan; and lubrication to the cam. As for any design that uses these holes to retain a bar-keeper (spider); you’d need to live with any disaster caused by fastener failure (this stuff is going to drop right on top of the crank); or figure a way that if it fails; nothing drops on the spinning crank and rods.


Thanks for all the work on this,

Joe

 

[turbofabricator]

You can run adjustable push rods in an engine. They are inherently heavier and weaker than a non-adjustable rod of the same tube diameter. They would not be the first choice for a performance engine.
As for the holes in the lifter gallery; they aren’t completely necessary; but do provide oil return to the pan; and lubrication to the cam. As for any design that uses these holes to retain a bar-keeper (spider); you’d need to live with any disaster caused by fastener failure (this stuff is going to drop right on top of the crank); or figure a way that if it fails; nothing drops on the spinning crank and rods.


Thanks for all the work on this,

Joe

Yes the holes allow for oil drain back, but that is just what you DON'T want in a race/performance engine. In fact, the cam is oiled by slash oil off of the rod/main bearings on a running engine. Then add to it you will be running a roller cam, and the need for oil draining on top of the cam is NOT needed. There is soooo much oil flinging around inside an engine when it is running, that anything you can do to reduce that amount of oil helps. Most small block Chevy guys intentionally plug the lifter valley with stand pipes that allow pressure to travel up, but not oil down. With a roller cam you only need a very minimal amount of oil to keep the roller and lobe lubricated.

True about the need to ensure that what ever retention device you use doesn't fail. I can draw up someting that will work that won't fall into the rotating assembly if it breaks, if I can get some time. Back to work for me.

Anyone want to help me move?:smile:

 

[87buickracer]

fwd roller parts..

up-date..I'm still doing body work on mine..I replace t-roof with hard top roof,replaced floor pans,replaced body bushings with poly bushings and waiting to get car in bodyshop for 8pt cage..motor is done except for intake gasket..as soon as I get the cage in I will drop in new motor and fire it up.Most of my time is spent waiting to get a spot in the bodyshop..It's a small custom shop that does excellent quality work,so it is worth the wait..hopefully cage will be done in a couple of weeks.I'm glad I changed the bushings because they were shot and some of them weren't even there.The others looked like pancakes after 20yrs(lol)..What a difference the poly bushings make..The car even sits about a 1/2" to 1" higher on chasis..more updates soon

 

[RobS]

We need to devise a retention method for the spider that does not require drilling and tapping the block. So these can be retro-fitted without a teardown.


Anyone have any ideas?

On page 103 of the Buick power source manual, it shows a rev kit retained by the heads. Also the pushrods run through the rev kit. What about a simlar setup? Soild plate at the head, sheet metal tubes, and if nessecary springs to keep tension on the dog bones?

 

[joe_schindler]

Here’s the solution to the above problem:

Comp Cams CCA-853-12 sells at Summit for $346.

I don’t recall what the above rev-kit went for; but I think it was more than the retrofit lifters.

I think we’ve begun to miss the point. This was something that a lot of us have thought about over the years. A inexpensive way to run a roller setup on an engine not made to do so. In 20 plus years of messing with Buicks; this has always been the most economical solution I could come up with.

Honestly; I don’t have a better solution that the ones already presented here. If we start to figure the amount of time involved in converting the block to run the 3800 setup; and figure that the engine has to be removed so you can drill it without the cuttings dropping on the crank; the above roller lifters start to look like a bargain.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m still going to work in this direction; and my next try is with a Brand-X (Chevy) V-6 lifter retainer. But; there’s a bunch of kid stuff and bicycles in the way of the engine stand as I write this.

I deeply appreciate how much work all of you have put into this project; and don’t want to discourage anyone.

Sorry; rear derailer won’t shift and the kids are letting me know.

Thanks guys,

Joe

 

[87buickracer]

Here’s the solution to the above problem:

Comp Cams CCA-853-12 sells at Summit for $346.

I don’t recall what the above rev-kit went for; but I think it was more than the retrofit lifters.

I think we’ve begun to miss the point. This was something that a lot of us have thought about over the years. A inexpensive way to run a roller setup on an engine not made to do so. In 20 plus years of messing with Buicks; this has always been the most economical solution I could come up with.

Honestly; I don’t have a better solution that the ones already presented here. If we start to figure the amount of time involved in converting the block to run the 3800 setup; and figure that the engine has to be removed so you can drill it without the cuttings dropping on the crank; the above roller lifters start to look like a bargain.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m still going to work in this direction; and my next try is with a Brand-X (Chevy) V-6 lifter retainer. But; there’s a bunch of kid stuff and bicycles in the way of the engine stand as I write this.

I deeply appreciate how much work all of you have put into this project; and don’t want to discourage anyone.

Sorry; rear derailer won’t shift and the kids are letting me know.

Thanks guys,

Joe

check my earlier post.It only cost me around $100.00 for lifters,dog bones and retainer and about 20 minutes to drill and tap holes in block.And if you are building your engine with the parts out it will be even easier.One of our club members have ran this set up for about five years with no problem.He also held a patent on cross drilling the crank and block for some time.He is currently in the process of experimenting with front wheel drive roller cams in our blocks..If I did not believe in this concept,I would not have done this to my own motor and shared it with you guys..If you are not mechanically inclined any machine shop can perform this mod for you..These are gm parts that work in our blocks..You can purchase from any parts dealer to include salvage yards..This is just another way you can run a roller cam set up if your on a budget.

 

[joe_schindler]

The two points I was trying to make are:

1) If your time is worth anything and you don’t have a need to pull the engine and take it apart; the retrofit lifters are the easy way out;

and

2) Building an expensive RevKit type of retainer defeats the idea here. EXPENSIVE is the key word here.

The only reasonable way I can see to do this is to pull the engine and take it apart. A Buick oil pump is not going to do well ingesting cast iron chunks from drilling the block. There’s a lot of things that can be done to an engine while it’s still in the car; but at some point you’re wasting time.

I’ve got absolutely no problem with believing that this will work. I’m just trying to keep with the original plan of low cost and easy build. $250 ($350 for CompCams lifters - $100 for 3800 style) goes pretty quick at most machine shops today.


87buickracer: I’d love to hear more about the Cross Drill Patent.


Thanks again,

Joe