Going for round number 2 with the oil leaking possessed TB!

B

BARRACUDA1968

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 4, 2011
Not that I don't have enough to worry about getting the car ready for the track Friday night but this oil leak is kicking my a$$. Sorry guy's but I just can't live with leaky motors and the squinting faces I get when people smell me coming.

I've been avoiding what I suspected all along and that was the crank seal. Did the oil dye and found a good leak at the fuel pump plate. Fixed that. Drove some more and more leakage, figured...hoped it was the pan. Fixed that Friday night and drove some more and now it's time to face the music. Off comes the timing cover. I was hoping oil was blowing up there from the IC fan but there's a trail off the crank and I know the pan is sealed.

Going to a 180 thermo and decided to install new Rad hoses so I've got the coolant drained so why not tackle it.

I'm using a Felpro seal and gaskets for the job but since I have gotten different opinions on this I'll ask how you guys' install the front seal. I have the stock cover so it goes in from the back.

Mainly do you use any sealant where the seal meets the timing cover or do you just depend on the rubber to seal between the timing cover and the crank seal?

I suspect my seal is leaking between the cover and the seal not the seal and the crank. I did lube the crank and the seal with oil before I installed the timing cover so I doubt I burned the seal at start up. I did however have a drop of oil on the front of the pan prior to start up. Just primed the motor and installed the engine in the car. Next day before fire up I had oil on the front of the pan. I suspect from the crank seal now.

I only want to do this one more time so throw any tips my way to get this VooDoo possessed TB to dry up.

Thank you!
 
For sure use an anaerobic sealant around the perimeter of your front seal before you install it!
Permatex Ultra Black or "The Right Stuff"
Do it once & be done.
 
One thing i would do is replace the cover with one that you can replace the seal without having to remove the cover. Better to spend a little money for the convenience of saving time and frustration just in case of future problems.

Hope you have good luck with those leaks,you have earned it.
 
I wish I had one of them other covers right about now but I got my cover from Earl already set up and it wasn't cheap so I'm going to stay with it. If I would have known then what I know now I would have had Earl do me up one of the other covers instead.

I didn't use any type of sealant when I installed the seal. I used the proper tool etc. I never felt comfortable with doing it that way but that's the advice I got at the time so I went with it. If it were me I'd just weld the sum beeeooch in and be done with it. :woot:

I do have "the right stuff" so I'll be using that this time.

I also need to take a closer look at the front cover in relation to the crank. I'm lined bored twice so I had to use a 10 under chain. I doubt that's going to be an issue but it's worth some investigation. I may try and figure out a way to index the timing cover seal hole with the crank. Not sure how yet but I'll think on it. Kind of like indexing a bellhousing for a manual trans.
 
Correct me if I am wrong..... 10 under chain means your crank is .010 closer to the cam. Not sure the seal is designed to deflect that much.
 
Not sure if the crank is actually that much closer to the cam but the chain is 10 under. I've thought about this mainly because when I assembled my 474 Pontiac there is some clearance in the timing cover so you need to make sure you're centered on the crank.

Any engine builders have some insight here?
 
BARRACUDA1968 said:
...............Mainly do you use any sealant where the seal meets the timing cover or do you just depend on the rubber to seal between the timing cover and the crank seal?

Thank you!
Click to expand...

The factory never used any sealant on these engines, and neither have I?

Did you install the oil slinger on the crank? If not this can be a possible leak.

The few oil leaks that were very difficult to find in this area have been the gasket between the oil filter housing and the cover.

As far as a 10 under chain, never seen an oil leak due to one of those yet?

Our best procedure to find a leak in that area is to have the car on a lift, and run the engine at RPM enough to have good oil pressure and more than one pair of eyes looking with a very bright light to find the source.

Since it is a turbo Buick and a race car, only one drop of oil will get you kicked off the track, you can always mount a belly pan which is required on the faster cars anyway. ;)
 
whitehot1 said:
One thing i would do is replace the cover with one that you can replace the seal without having to remove the cover. Better to spend a little money for the convenience of saving time and frustration just in case of future problems.

Hope you have good luck with those leaks,you have earned it.
Click to expand...
Most of those are Chinese crap. They require a lot of work to get right and some are not worth fixing


BPE2013@hotmail.com
 
bison said:
Most of those are Chinese crap. They require a lot of work to get right and some are not worth fixing


BPE2013@hotmail.com
Click to expand...
Don't want to start a front cover debate:) but TA cover is much better than oem has an external seal and is cast in China....but finish machined in USA.
 
What type of seal is currently installed? The original rope seal or the replacement lip seal?

I usually knock out the rope and replace it with a lip seal that installs from the inside of the cover. On the aftermarket and Stage 2 covers, the lip seal installs from the outside.

I have run many line bored and line honed blocks without a leakage problem caused by the front cover seal. The lip seal should be more than capable of working with your .010 under situation.

When GM installed the rope seal, they pressed a steel seal retainer into the seal bore. They staked the retainer in 3-4 places. This upsets the metal in the seal bore and makes it harder to install the aftermarket seal. I usually true up the front cover seal bore on my mill using a rotary table with a 3 jaw chuck.......but you can fix the problem with a die grinder and a straight shank carbide burr.

The aftermarket seal will go in much easier if you touch up the seal bore first.........just my $.02
 
Last edited:
Nick; Yes I did install the oil slinger. I double checked the oil pump to cover and no leaks. I ran oil dye through the motor and found a leak at the fuel block off plate, fixed it then to the pan trying to avoid the cranks seal because oil can go all over the place making it difficult to find the source. We even ran the car on the lift like you said and it no obvious signs even with the dye in it.

Bison; I took all my advice on the build from Husek and he doesn't want to be part of the deal without a cover from Earl. Can't say he wouldn't have tutored me along but he was pretty firm on the cover from Earl so I went that way.

turbodave; I installed a lip seal, I will be taking my time with the cover and seal this go around to make sure I do it correctly. I was supposed to be at the track Friday night but I just don't have the time to get the car ready at this point.

Take a look at the balancer, I have a ring of surface rust where the seal was. Looks like a dry start may have burned the seal? Not sure what to make of it. I did lube the seal and balancer with oil before install. The motor sat for 2 days before I fired it and it fired right up first time.

Just about have the cover off so I'll take a close look at the seal and post some pictures.



 
Here's the deal, lip of the seal is gone. I don't even know how it kept oil in the motor? The pic with the zip tie is the clearance I have between the balancer and the seal. The other picture is without the zip tie and you can see daylight in between the seal and timing cover.

I don't think I had the seal seated to the timing cover properly either. It looks like I had a gap at the bottom of the seal, the top was seated which would have had the seal in cockied. I wouldn't think that would have burnt the seal lip up but who knows?

What ate the seal? I oiled it with motor oil. Do I need to use grease or something different?







 
I quit worrying about my balls about 3 months after my old lady quit paying attention to them. :D Now I'm just happy if I can sneak a peek when she gets out of the shower.

I may have mis led everyone on the original seal. If you look at the picture of the seal in the cover there is an outside groove in the cover that looks like it's part of the seal. That groove is the cover not the seal. I thought it was part of the seal because the new seal (felpro) has a steel lip around the out side which would seat to the cover. I hope this makes sense. I felt a lip and assumed it didn't get the seal seated all the way.

I took the cover over to a buddies shop that builds engines. His son built this motor and I buttoned up the last details. The seal that was in the cover doesn't have a metal lip, it's all rubber. Something Husek uses and I installed it wrong. I didn't lube it or use sealant to help it guide in the cover. I did use the correct tool to drive it in but evidently I damaged it hammering it in. This particular seal that we took out had a spongy type feel to it like it lost it's elasticity. Not sure why or what exactly happened but when we installed the new seal Rich used a gasket sealant and we pressed it in. He's a machinist so he made a special fitting to cradle the seal and it pressed it like butter. The new seal also fits the balancer nicely, I'm no expect in case anyone reading this hasn't figured that out but Rich said it will be fine so that is good enough for me.

It's hard to help on these forums without being here and putting your hands on it but I use these forums to get as many ideas thrown at me as possible. There's always multiple solutions to the same problem depending on how the problem got there.

I appreciate all the help.
 
Chuck Leeper said:
The rust ate the seal. Put a s/s saver sleeve on it, and call it done.
[Putting it in crooked didn't help!] U know you needed your ballz busted!:facepalm::D
http://www.timken.com/en-us/products/seals/automotive/Pages/harmonicbalancersleeves.aspx

Summit has them for about $6....bet your local ap does, too.
Click to expand...

I am going to run this by Rich before I put things back together. I am going to index the crank to cover measurements to see if I'm out of round beyond the seal tolerance gestimates.

Thanks for the link, great info.
 
What I want to know: What size is the engine in the Custom Bagger in the second picture? 88? 96? or 103? and is it a StreetGlide or RoadGlide?

:)
 
You don't want to move the cover up to try and center the seal around the crank hub. That would mess with the engagement between the cam sensor gear and the bevel cam gear.

The seal can easily deflect enough to account for .010"
 
turbodave231 said:
What I want to know: What size is the engine in the Custom Bagger in the second picture? 88? 96? or 103? and is it a StreetGlide or RoadGlide?

:)
Click to expand...

It's a 2011 Sreamin Eagle Streetglide with 110 motor. Stock CI motor for these bikes. Mine has cam's, ported heads and a bit more compression than factory. Makes 121 HP & 124 TQ at the tire. Pretty decent for a bagger.

earlbrown said:
You don't want to move the cover up to try and center the seal around the crank hub. That would mess with the engagement between the cam sensor gear and the bevel cam gear.

The seal can easily deflect enough to account for .010"
Click to expand...

Right on! On the old hot rod stuff you have options like that on some motors like my Pontiac.

Still can't figure why or what happened with the first seal? The rust ring on the balancer has me baffled a little. Chicken or the Egg? What came first? Did the worn seal create the rust from moisture sitting around the balancer from lack of seal pressure or did the rust eat the seal? I had been chasing an oil leak at the front of the motor so when I thought I had it licked I'd clean the motor up front and go for a drive. Just used a mild degreaser, low pressure rinse with water and blew it dry with air.

Still leaked so tried a different gasket and repeated the process.

May just go back to brake clean in the future.
 
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