H beam vs. I beam rods

[Alky V6]

I think anyone can bend any type of rod as a person is working up their combination for the first time.
What would be interesting is learning how well a rod holds up after all the trials and tribulations have been gone through, and a safe tuneup has been determined.
Rods are not meant to withstand all types of tuning mishaps and miscalculations.

 

[BlownV6]

Mike. Even I know that it's useless comparing the dimensions of a titanium rod to an aluminum rod.

Weren't you also running some crazy static compression during the beginnings of your blower adventure? If I remember right, the fueling was also on the lean side for a non-intercooled blower situation.

Not too many rods that will take on alcohol pre-ignition conditions. Aluminum rods would most likely be your best bet, since they're known for absorbing shock loads better, but just with a shorter life span.

When I ordered these new combos I used a target of 8.15 to 1 compression. That is the compression used when this rod let go. The Crower rods I put in it are shorter and put the compression at 6.71 to 1. If detonation causes this type of rod failure then it was the wrong rod choice to start with!!
Mike

 

[Alky V6]

One area that's interesting where the Buick V6 is involved is the available space we have for a rod designer to work with because of the camshaft placement to the crankshaft.
This is particularly a problem with an aluminum rod and, Mike, I'm wondering how you got around this problem.

 

[Alky V6]

When I ordered these new combos I used a target of 8.15 to 1 compression. That is the compression used when this rod let go. The Crower rods I put in it are shorter and put the compression at 6.71 to 1. If detonation causes this type of rod failure then it was the wrong rod choice to start with!!
Mike

Methanol does not detonate. It does preignite, though. This I know very well. I learned this with, first, a set of stock rods, and then a set of H beam Carrillos.
I'm now on my third year with Olivers at performance levels for a 224 cid that I thought I would never see. I will say that after the first two engines, I went much more slowly and carefully with the tuneup. I don't have the deep pockets that some of you others have.
I'll be pming the motor this year and I'll let everyone know how the Olivers measure out.

Edit: I just realized I'm going on my forth year with these rods. Amazing if you knew some of the tuning mishaps I've had.

 

[K1tom]

Tom, Please note the date on the e-mail from Rhyne engines 1/14/2005. At this point it had been determined that it could be done, and what it would cost to build. As you stated you were in charge of every rod ever produced by Oliver up to the date you left!! You were in charge of this project and I spoke to YOU personally about it. So please dont try to deny your involvement with this situation.

For all who question what happened to the wrist pin boss. When the rod beam gave out , it was in a buckling and twisting fashion which shortened the rod length. There is only maybe an 1/8" of clearance between the crankshaft counterweights and the bottom of the piston to start with , so when the rod buckled the piston was pulled into the path of the counterweight that was swinging at over 7000rpm. Hopefully you can imagine what would happen to the piston at that point!! Mike

Mike,

In January of 2005 I was in charge and yes I did design the rods. I was there until September but in February I told the owner I was leaving and he removed me from my position as GM so I could concentrate on completing some projects I had started plus putting together some notes and instruction sheets that would allow them to continue operating. I was not in charge of what and how things were being made in the shop or in charge of quality control. Sorry but I do not remember every phone conversation that I ever had especially one from almost 6 years ago. Prior to you posting the photos, I had no idea of who you are. I might be wrong but from what I remember, the first I heard of this was after I left and I do not think I ever saw the parts. I can see your anger and understand. You paid a pile of money for parts that did not look like what you expected them to look like when you received them. Maybe a rod broke first, maybe it didn't but since they probably looked "weak" to you when you opened the box, no matter what broke, your mind was made up before you ever pulled the pan and now over 5 years later you have the opportunity to vent. If all you want to do is bad mouth me here, that is your choice but if you are interested, I would be happy to look at the parts and give you an honest opinion of what happened.

Tom

 

[Alky V6]

I just checked more carefully and found out this set of rods first went into service on 9/2006. Wow.
That means I'm starting on year 5 with these rods.

 

[its2qik]

Several years ago I contracted with an idependant lab to test 300M and 4340 at different hardness levels. 300M is not some magical material that will solve all problems and is actually 4340 with silicon and vanadium added and these additional elements allow the material to be hardened to a higher level. The results of this testing came back with 4340 having better fatigue life until both materials were hardened to mid 50's and higher Rockwell at which point 300M was better. The problem is, when you hardend any material to over 50 Rockwell it becomes much more difficult to machine. Because of this most people who make rods out of 300M do not go this hard so there is actually no real gain. The other down side to 300M is compared to 4340, it is manufacturered in smaller batches so the cost is considerably higher. Dyer is one of the few people who have actually been sucessful in making a rod out of 300M and his quality is excellent. Many others have tried and either stopped making them or gone out of business (Arrow out of Texas went out of business several years ago).

Tom

Tom, thanks for taking the time to give such a helpful reply. That's some good info right there!

 

[BlownV6]

Mike,

In January of 2005 I was in charge and yes I did design the rods. I was there until September but in February I told the owner I was leaving and he removed me from my position as GM so I could concentrate on completing some projects I had started plus putting together some notes and instruction sheets that would allow them to continue operating. I was not in charge of what and how things were being made in the shop or in charge of quality control. Sorry but I do not remember every phone conversation that I ever had especially one from almost 6 years ago. Prior to you posting the photos, I had no idea of who you are. I might be wrong but from what I remember, the first I heard of this was after I left and I do not think I ever saw the parts. I can see your anger and understand. You paid a pile of money for parts that did not look like what you expected them to look like when you received them. Maybe a rod broke first, maybe it didn't but since they probably looked "weak" to you when you opened the box, no matter what broke, your mind was made up before you ever pulled the pan and now over 5 years later you have the opportunity to vent. If all you want to do is bad mouth me here, that is your choice but if you are interested, I would be happy to look at the parts and give you an honest opinion of what happened.
Tom

Tom, I appreciate you coming clean on this. Yes I am still very angry , and yes I did sieze this oppurtunity to lash out at you. Quite honestly I dont know who did what!! But Tom Baldwin (owner of Oliver) on numerous occasions has thrown you under the bus on this one , and named you as solely responsible for the engineering and F--up of the design of these rods.
I can see now that possibly , this wasnt exactly the case!!

I would very happy to let you look at these parts and give me your opinion.
Do you have the capability of checking the engineering of the beam and giving me a revised HP estimate of what these rods should be rated????
I would like to have your input so that I can sell them!! Right now I wont sell them because Im just not sure about what they should actually be rated , and I wont let someone else suffer the same fait as I did. This would be a very nice gesture on your part , and a big step in the healing process on my end!! Mike

 

[K1tom]

Tom, I appreciate you coming clean on this. Yes I am still very angry , and yes I did sieze this oppurtunity to lash out at you. Quite honestly I dont know who did what!! But Tom Baldwin (owner of Oliver) on numerous occasions has thrown you under the bus on this one , and named you as solely responsible for the engineering and F--up of the design of these rods.
I can see now that possibly , this wasnt exactly the case!!

I would very happy to let you look at these parts and give me your opinion.
Do you have the capability of checking the engineering of the beam and giving me a revised HP estimate of what these rods should be rated????
I would like to have your input so that I can sell them!! Right now I wont sell them because Im just not sure about what they should actually be rated , and I wont let someone else suffer the same fait as I did. This would be a very nice gesture on your part , and a big step in the healing process on my end!! Mike

Mike,

My goal in looking at the parts is to be straight and honest (this is the only way I know how to be) and see if it looks like the rod really broke first. The next thing is, if it looks like the rod broke, try to figure out WHY it did. I will provide my findings and let the chips fall where they may. If you would call me at my office (616-583-9700) when you have a few minutes, we can make arrangements as to where to send the parts. I also have another story for you when you call.

As for power ratings, this is a real can of worms and I am working on a list of things that I will be posting shortly.

For the record, the owner of Oliver is Bruce Baldwin and yes, he has blamed me for several of his problems. The company has changed greatly since I left as they have stopped making titanium rods, forged rods, crankshafts and for the most part no longer make custom rods. They also stopped selling main caps and bearings. It seems he also found out I was telling people that I designed all of their rods so a couple of years after I left they made some design changes and shortly after, I started getting phone calls from people asking what was going on because they were having rod problems. Since I had been gone for quite some time, I had no idea what had changed (if anything) and told them to call Oliver direct and ask them. That is when I started hearing back from customers that they were told that I sabotaged designs before I left. Once again throwing me under the bus. The fact is not only did I not sabotage any designs, I wrote a complete book on how to continue making rods and cranks including simple instructions that allowed them to produce CNC programs to keep all of the machines running. At the time of my departure, I also started a consulting business so that if they needed any kind of help, I could get in my car and drive the 7 or so miles to their factory and do what ever it took to keep them whole.

I look forward to speaking with you shortly.

Tom

 

[Jerryl]

Mike,

My goal in looking at the parts is to be straight and honest (this is the only way I know how to be) and see if it looks like the rod really broke first. The next thing is, if it looks like the rod broke, try to figure out WHY it did. I will provide my findings and let the chips fall where they may. . . . . Tom

Tom,
Just thought I would add my observation of your tremendous composure and restraint.
Thanks for your input and support of the 99%-ers.

 

[Alky V6]

The company has changed greatly since I left as they have stopped making titanium rods,...
Tom

Could the cost of Ti be one of the reasons for the abandonment of making Ti rods? I thought I heard that the cost of Ti went through the roof.

 

[The Radius Kid]

Could the cost of Ti be one of the reasons for the abandonment of making Ti rods? I thought I heard that the cost of Ti went through the roof.

Probably because it's a b*tch to refine,tough to machine and prone to failure without warning ... even though it checked out fine before install.
You can't have any surface marks or they propogate into cracks in a hurry and it loves to gaul if it comes in contact with impurities or different grades of Steel.
I'm guessing the last part is due to internal stresses manifesting later that can't be found with standard surface style checks.
In short,it's real temperamental.
In Mike's case,I'd have taken that set of rods and jammed them up somebody's butt if they had the nerve to send them to me after paying that much money.
The Crower design seems to be a much better approach to the problem.
Mike got bit by the desire to chase his dream to fruition and it cost him.
Happens to the best sometimes,as it did in this case.
Snake oil salesmen.
It has been shown that Tom had nothing to do with the final design of the rods ... that's good - I think we can take him at his word.
He who screams loudest is usually the guilty party,or something like that.
I do find Tom's idea for a "parabolic profile" rod interesting [IIRC what he said correctly].

 

[ijames]

Tom and Mike, thanks for finding a way to get your points across while keeping things civil. I hope Tom can determine what caused the failure.

Tom, since the difference between an I beam and an H beam is which side you are looking from , has anyone tried a rectangular tube beam to get the best of both worlds? Start with a solid billet like you would before machining the grooves for an H beam, then stand it up big end up and drill down through the beam with a long 1/4" or 3/8" drill bit. Do an array of holes to take out as much weight as you would with the exterior grooves, leaving the bare minimum between holes so the drill bit goes straight. Now you have "webbing" or tube wall on all sides so it should resist twisting or bending in both directions. If you need to keep oil out you can machine a pocket and press in a freeze plug with sealer, and if you need to get oil to the wrist pin you could drill the center hole a much smaller diameter and go all the way to the pin bushing. Drilling is the fastest way to remove metal so I'd start with that no matter what, but if you wanted you could try using a long end mill and remove the material between the drilled holes to get the weight down further, but at first glance I don't think you would need to do this step. It's such a simple idea I'm sure somone has done this, but I've never heard of it. Any thoughts?

 

[The Radius Kid]

Tom and Mike, thanks for finding a way to get your points across while keeping things civil. I hope Tom can determine what caused the failure.

Tom, since the difference between an I beam and an H beam is which side you are looking from , has anyone tried a rectangular tube beam to get the best of both worlds? Start with a solid billet like you would before machining the grooves for an H beam, then stand it up big end up and drill down through the beam with a long 1/4" or 3/8" drill bit. Do an array of holes to take out as much weight as you would with the exterior grooves, leaving the bare minimum between holes so the drill bit goes straight. Now you have "webbing" or tube wall on all sides so it should resist twisting or bending in both directions. If you need to keep oil out you can machine a pocket and press in a freeze plug with sealer, and if you need to get oil to the wrist pin you could drill the center hole a much smaller diameter and go all the way to the pin bushing. Drilling is the fastest way to remove metal so I'd start with that no matter what, but if you wanted you could try using a long end mill and remove the material between the drilled holes to get the weight down further, but at first glance I don't think you would need to do this step. It's such a simple idea I'm sure somone has done this, but I've never heard of it. Any thoughts?

Nice thinking,but with one fatal flaw:

You lose your load bearing capacity on the inside face of the big end of the rod.

 

[951le]

Tom where are your rods made?

 

[951le]

In the pic of Mrsyclone's rod.Where that rod is bent is supposed to be why the I beam is stronger than the H beam right.It looks like it had more force put on one side of the wristpin than the other

 

[Alky V6]

In the pic of Mrsyclone's rod.Where that rod is bent is supposed to be why the I beam is stronger than the H beam right.It looks like it had more force put on one side of the wristpin than the other

The picture of the I beam shows the beam bent along its weak axis. With an H beam rod, that particular axis would be stronger than the I beam. I think that's how it goes.

Is there off-setting in a Chevy V6? If so, that might help explain the rod being bent on that axis.

 

[951le]

I thought it was the other way around.To look at it it looks like the I beam would be stronger there than the H beam.These rods are confusing

 

[The Radius Kid]

My short experience from the Oliver rods. This rod have 5 1/8 passes. Got quite suprised when I overhauled my engine this winter. Called Oliver and they said that the maximum HP was 225 HP/rod. They recommend me H-beam instead for I-beam rods. Quite enoying when you put that money on Oliver rods, that everybody says is so good.

Merry Christmas

Robert

Have you got a face on shot of that rod?

 

[K1tom]

Tom and Mike, thanks for finding a way to get your points across while keeping things civil. I hope Tom can determine what caused the failure.

Tom, since the difference between an I beam and an H beam is which side you are looking from , has anyone tried a rectangular tube beam to get the best of both worlds? Start with a solid billet like you would before machining the grooves for an H beam, then stand it up big end up and drill down through the beam with a long 1/4" or 3/8" drill bit. Do an array of holes to take out as much weight as you would with the exterior grooves, leaving the bare minimum between holes so the drill bit goes straight. Now you have "webbing" or tube wall on all sides so it should resist twisting or bending in both directions. If you need to keep oil out you can machine a pocket and press in a freeze plug with sealer, and if you need to get oil to the wrist pin you could drill the center hole a much smaller diameter and go all the way to the pin bushing. Drilling is the fastest way to remove metal so I'd start with that no matter what, but if you wanted you could try using a long end mill and remove the material between the drilled holes to get the weight down further, but at first glance I don't think you would need to do this step. It's such a simple idea I'm sure somone has done this, but I've never heard of it. Any thoughts?

Rolling around in the mud doesn't solve problems. Mike and I had what I consider a nice chat on the phone today and we will see if we can figure out what happened.

I am not aware of anyone making a rod out of a square tube but in the 1920's, Packard made rods out of round tubes that had pin end welded on one end and a housing bore welded on the other.

I have an example of why an I-beam is not the hot ticket in high power applications and will try to up load it.


Tom