Has anyone ever cut a pair of cargo coils to lower the backe end?
- Thread starter GNVAIR
- Start date
tminer
Not quite normal
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
I believe there are some (fbody?) that can be trimmed but you need another piece (cushion/spacer?). We've both done more or less the same research, the info is available thru one of them MC links. I don't have them bookmarked here.
BTW, thanks for all of the posting of your results/experience on the suspension stuff. We came to a lot of the same conclusions (well, I'd use a 1.125" rear swaybar with CCs), so your results have been very beneficial to me.
Tom
BTW, thanks for all of the posting of your results/experience on the suspension stuff. We came to a lot of the same conclusions (well, I'd use a 1.125" rear swaybar with CCs), so your results have been very beneficial to me.
Tom
Tom........I am going to play around with the rear suspension this weekend. I might venture out to the local yard to see if I can locate a pair of IROC or GTA rear springs and insulators. I am trying to get the back end down a little bit to match the front.
I still have to box the extra set of arms and install the 1LE bushings I have. I also have the ATR rear bar to try out. The thing is enormous. I am just wondering how it is going to affect the handling. I am trying to make it more neutral and get away from the over steering tendency that is inherent to the g bodies.
I am trying to build a good all around car......not just a straightliner and not just a corner carver. It has to be the best of both. You might also want to check out the rolling chassis forum at www.montecarloss.com.
I go between both boards since there is some good info available on both. But there are more Monte guys that autocross and road race out there and as such, they have plenty of great info to share.
I still have to box the extra set of arms and install the 1LE bushings I have. I also have the ATR rear bar to try out. The thing is enormous. I am just wondering how it is going to affect the handling. I am trying to make it more neutral and get away from the over steering tendency that is inherent to the g bodies.
I am trying to build a good all around car......not just a straightliner and not just a corner carver. It has to be the best of both. You might also want to check out the rolling chassis forum at www.montecarloss.com.
I go between both boards since there is some good info available on both. But there are more Monte guys that autocross and road race out there and as such, they have plenty of great info to share.
tminer
Not quite normal
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
I got the impression that with CCs and a big (OK, HUGE!) swaybar, it might be a little skiddish on bumpy roads. I thought that we had understeer and you flipped that with all the front end work. I haven't taken mine to the limits, but don't almost all factory cars have understeer so we don't spin em around, just skid off the high side? Throttle induced oversteer not withstanding!
Unfortunately, my info is from research only, hence my keen interest in your practical results.
Good luck.
Tom
Unfortunately, my info is from research only, hence my keen interest in your practical results.
Good luck.
Tom
Donald McMullin
New Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
GNVAIR: I tryed the ATR (1.375") rear sway bar and it made my WE4 oversteer with my setup at the time. For my application, I did not like it. For others (mostly drag racing) it seems to work.
I like a balanced handling car, this large sway bar un-balanced my setup. On a fast corner @70 to 80 mph I would have to counter-steer midway through corner to offset oversteer.
I had 26" tires front and rear at time and rear tires were not wide enough.
It is all dependent on your setup.
If I remember correctly you have installed the B-spindles in front. With this setup Globe West recommends reducing or removing the rear swaybar. Not sure if this is correct becuase I have not tried it.
Attached is a summary of the different ways to change oversteer and understeer. Like with the engine/trans, combination is everything.
http://www.rogerkrausracing.com/overundr.html
I am still learning myself about setting these G-body cars up for "fast" road work.
Still Having Fun
Donald McMullin
I like a balanced handling car, this large sway bar un-balanced my setup. On a fast corner @70 to 80 mph I would have to counter-steer midway through corner to offset oversteer.
I had 26" tires front and rear at time and rear tires were not wide enough.
It is all dependent on your setup.
If I remember correctly you have installed the B-spindles in front. With this setup Globe West recommends reducing or removing the rear swaybar. Not sure if this is correct becuase I have not tried it.
Attached is a summary of the different ways to change oversteer and understeer. Like with the engine/trans, combination is everything.
http://www.rogerkrausracing.com/overundr.html
I am still learning myself about setting these G-body cars up for "fast" road work.
Still Having Fun
Donald McMullin
Donald McMullin
New Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
With even more detail, here is a NASCAR setup guide.
http://www.bhmotorsports.com/n3_guides/quick_fix.htm
Talk about overload of information. I look at this and wonder how much time and work is it going to take to get the combination correct.
Deep Enough
Donald McMullin
http://www.bhmotorsports.com/n3_guides/quick_fix.htm
Talk about overload of information. I look at this and wonder how much time and work is it going to take to get the combination correct.
Deep Enough
Donald McMullin
Mine definitely grips extremely well in the front, but exhibits way too much roll in the back. I was planning to use the ATR bar to limit the roll. In actuality, what I am planning to do is to replace the bushings first. I would also like to lower the back end a tad as it presently sits higher than the front. My feeling is that the roll center is too high AND there is a lack of sufficient roll stiffness in the back end. Yes, the ATR bar might be too large, but I would like to atleast try it first before I condemn it. I know I can always get my money back out of it if it doesnt live up to my expectations.
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
The larger the rear bar, the more oversteer that occurs.
The ATR will make the car handle better on smooth roads and may help the launch. On rough roads, it transfers wheel jitter from one side of the car to the other...
Better handling is probably gotten from a stiffer rear spring and something in the 1 1/8" size.
The ATR will make the car handle better on smooth roads and may help the launch. On rough roads, it transfers wheel jitter from one side of the car to the other...
Better handling is probably gotten from a stiffer rear spring and something in the 1 1/8" size.
Donald McMullin
New Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
I can not remember your complete setup, so I might miss an important point, but here goes:
(1) B-Spindle setup provides camber gain which will increase front grip and decrease understeer (increase oversteer).
(2) Stock rear 4-link suspension at or near stock height, which has some toe-out which decrease understeer (increases oversteer).
(3) Stock front sway bar with ATR rear sway bar, which will
decrease understeer (increase oversteer).
(4) Stiffer springs front and rear which should be balanced regarding over/under steer if springs are matched set. If you have stiffer springs in back and not in front this will decrease understeer (increase oversteer).
If you have (extra wide) 275 rear tires this might be enough to offset all of the oversteer you have built into the setup, but I am concerned.
Try this, it will not cost you anything. Take off the rear sway bar to reduce oversteer. Because the swaybar increased the lower bar stiffness regarding side loading, I am not a real fan of removing the rear bar, but just for a trial it should provide good information.
If this reduces oversteer and makes the car more balanced, then increase the size of the front bar and re-install the rear bar.
Just an idea. Hope everything works out.
Good Hunting.
Donald McMullin
(1) B-Spindle setup provides camber gain which will increase front grip and decrease understeer (increase oversteer).
(2) Stock rear 4-link suspension at or near stock height, which has some toe-out which decrease understeer (increases oversteer).
(3) Stock front sway bar with ATR rear sway bar, which will
decrease understeer (increase oversteer).
(4) Stiffer springs front and rear which should be balanced regarding over/under steer if springs are matched set. If you have stiffer springs in back and not in front this will decrease understeer (increase oversteer).
If you have (extra wide) 275 rear tires this might be enough to offset all of the oversteer you have built into the setup, but I am concerned.
Try this, it will not cost you anything. Take off the rear sway bar to reduce oversteer. Because the swaybar increased the lower bar stiffness regarding side loading, I am not a real fan of removing the rear bar, but just for a trial it should provide good information.
If this reduces oversteer and makes the car more balanced, then increase the size of the front bar and re-install the rear bar.
Just an idea. Hope everything works out.
Good Hunting.
Donald McMullin
Donald McMullin
New Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Just one more thought. Remember these cars have a real problem of "throttle induced" oversteer when using the trottle in a corner because:
(1) Instant Center of stock rear suspension results in squat which reduces down force on rear tires.
(2) The surge of power when turbo boost comes one, again will push limit of rear tires ie vector of side force (cornering) and acceleration force will exceed the capacity of the tires to maintain traction.
My approach is to design for slight understeer, revise rear Instant Center so load on rear tires is increased during acceleration. With car in slight understeer while maintaining constant velocity, I can induce slight oversteer with throttle.
Everything is a compromise. The above listed approach has a down side. With the revised IC, the rear axel will squat under braking which can be a problem. To resolve this the brakes must be bias to the front even more than stock.
Lots of options, too little time.
Deep Enough
Donald McMullin
(1) Instant Center of stock rear suspension results in squat which reduces down force on rear tires.
(2) The surge of power when turbo boost comes one, again will push limit of rear tires ie vector of side force (cornering) and acceleration force will exceed the capacity of the tires to maintain traction.
My approach is to design for slight understeer, revise rear Instant Center so load on rear tires is increased during acceleration. With car in slight understeer while maintaining constant velocity, I can induce slight oversteer with throttle.
Everything is a compromise. The above listed approach has a down side. With the revised IC, the rear axel will squat under braking which can be a problem. To resolve this the brakes must be bias to the front even more than stock.
Lots of options, too little time.
Deep Enough
Donald McMullin
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