Hot-Air Alky Cooling Data

[Boost231]

yes. i can get that for you tonight.

 

[Boost231]

jerryl, here is the data you wanted. the last one is at the top end of the track. im runing 55lb injectors

23.1 psi
5450 rpm
A/F 11.13
Duty Cycle 58.8

23.3 psi
5650 rpm
A/F 11.00
Duty Cycle 57.3

21.1 psi
5450 rpm
A/F 11.00
Duty Cycle 58.8

25.1 psi
5850 rpm
A/F 11.00
Duty Cycle 71.8

 

[Jerryl]

So, let me try this.

Disclaimer ;
Need a lot more time to finish up the calcs and this is just something to start with.
Remember, these are “theoretical numbers only!”
No one should not make any decisions on these numbers and I accept no responsibility for a different outcome.

Based on the last run, the DC should have been be around 93%, without alky.
So, at 72% DC, you are spraying a good bit of alky. ( I calculate around 25% replacement)
Further more, my calculations indicate WHP of around 384, which is enough for around 114-115 MPH in a 3500 TR, based on fuel usage and mix. (So, that number is close based on what I think you would have run)
Refer to these as the baseline calcs. since we now appear to be close with the calculated numbers vs the actual.

If I back into the calcs, it would appear you are spraying around 2850CC/min of alky average at the big end.
Without alky, the charge temps would be around 390F.
Calculated charge temp drop is around 180F and charge temp is 210F.
So, what you are seeing appears to be realistic.

Here is what does not make sense to me (Note, I am not even sure this is correct);
First off, the PAC with dual nozzles should actually be spraying a lot more than real life and calculations indicate.
At 5000 cc/min (I pulled this number out of the air), the calculated charge temp would be closer to 122F.
Not sure if that is realistic . . . . . Only “real life info” will tell the tale.

Also, noticed this based on more Ass-U-M-ptions
With a 27” tire, 1:1 gear, 3.42 final, 5850 rpm, 115 mph, converter slip is 19%
If we follow what Bison has stated about the current converters (5% slip), this combo at 5% should produce 131 mph.

With a 27” tire, 1:1 gear, 3.73 final, 5850 rpm, 115 mph, converter slip is 9-10%
Again, if we follow what Bison has stated about the current converters (5% slip), this combo at 5% should produce 120 mph.

 

[Jerryl]

I sure hope one of the smarter "Big Guns" jumps into this thread and posts so I can learn some more.

 

[Jerryl]

......... I have a dual nozzle on my car and last night the charge air temp was less than ambient at 20psi on the highway after about 2 seconds of WOT. You should relocate your ATS so you can get an actual number and crank the alky up to pull the heat out. The ATS will let you know if you are going in the right direction as you increase boost and crank the alky. If you have 20 psi at 5000 rpm and the charge air temp has decreased 15-20 degrees you will pick up power.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/296611-tuning-117-race-gas.html

Here is a good read.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/rescr/faq/airmass/airmass.html

 

[Boost231]

Jerryl, great info. I wish I could learn more from you. Car is running 28" tall tires. Converter is not being locked so I know that is causing slip as well. I talked to dusty and he said my converter is doing pretty well since its being short shifted and its hard for a converter to couple when I'm shifting so low and spinning so high. The slippage should go down when I raise my shift points. Next year its a new tranny anyways and one of dustys converters. Also my car weighs 3344 last time out.

Brent

 

[Jerryl]

Jerryl, great info. I wish I could learn more from you. Car is running 28" tall tires. Converter is not being locked so I know that is causing slip as well. I talked to dusty and he said my converter is doing pretty well since its being short shifted and its hard for a converter to couple when I'm shifting so low and spinning so high. The slippage should go down when I raise my shift points. Next year its a new tranny anyways and one of dustys converters. Also my car weighs 3344 last time out.

Brent

Good stuff!
Been trying to understand this stuff for a few years now . . . . .
Here is another thread.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/al...o-intercooler-pure-chemical-intercooling.html

 

[Jerryl]

Oh, one thing to note on the pic I posted (in case you have not :tongue;
You will see that the MAT increases as the RPM increases while the boost is pretty stable.
So, as the air through the motor increases, the volume of alky “should” increase to keep the % of alky constant.

Someone will say: But the system is progressive!
I know the system is progressive, which means this system injects more alky at a given boost number.
The fuel requirement is however different if you run 20PSI boost @ 4000 rpm, vs 20PSI @ 6000 rpm.
The injector DC changes, which means more fuel at the same pressure, but the PAC's rate of injection is constant at both RPM’s.

What I "think" is happening, is that the alky at early stages of the 20 psi boost and lower RPM range is XX%
As RPM increases and staying in boost, the MAT goes up since the engine heats up, and the XX% is not the same anymore.
A double edged sword.
Having said that however, I have a run from a 98F day where the temp kept dropping.


I am not knocking the PAC, it is one of the BEST things EVER for these cars.
So, for those "on the fence" . . . . . This is where the TT6.0 chip shines! (Shameless plug for one of the BEST vendors! )
Set the target AFR, and have the ECM adjust fueling through the range.

 

[charlief1]

Good info Jerryl. I'm subscribed.

 

[Boost231]

bump for a good read. was looking at this post and was wondering how my data would change since the rear end ratio was off. car had a 3.90 gear and i had no idea. so it appears converter slip wasn't as high as expected. converter slip comes out to 5.2% which is pretty good.

I have more data that i might send jerryl if he wants it. not sure if anyone likes seeing this type of data. new converter is showing 2.3% slip. i have since changed the setting in the controller new tune, more boost, new converter and trans and a few other things.

brent

 

[Jerryl]

bump for a good read. was looking at this post and was wondering how my data would change since the rear end ratio was off. car had a 3.90 gear and i had no idea. so it appears converter slip wasn't as high as expected. converter slip comes out to 5.2% which is pretty good.

I have more data that i might send jerryl if he wants it. not sure if anyone likes seeing this type of data. new converter is showing 2.3% slip. i have since changed the setting in the controller new tune, more boost, new converter and trans and a few other things.

brent

Brent,
I am still working on a few other data analysis/calc projects (have not forgotten) . . . . . and would LOVE to see the data.

 

[Boost231]

let me know what data you want. either via phone or email etc. guess this is boring info..

 

[Jerryl]

let me know what data you want. either via phone or email etc. guess this is boring info..

Boring to some maybe. LOL!
Success belongs to those who understand the variables, are able to interpret the data, and use the data analysis to their advantage.

 

[Boost231]

agreed, now time to go to a bigger turbo. humm how big to go.. will the hood close?

 

[racemybuick]

boring heck no!!! but like you said, if they dont understand, it is just numbers and acronyms!!!


Im not there yet, I still have a ton of body work before we drop the motor in, but a TT chip is on the docket, and PAC kit from somebody (any recommendations???), and im still waiting on the scanmaster, lt1maf and translator plus to finish off the whole electronics part... all on the to-do list!! hahahaha


John

 

[Boost231]

Razors kit of course. however i would either run the nozzle like i have them and run smaller nozzles like dual m7's. or you could do something else but thats your call. im not sure what route im going. sure would be nice to have the car here

 

[Jerryl]

ttt