Hydroboost

[SVORay]

Anything is better than a Powermaster in my opinion.


Sorry but I'm not trusting my life to a brake system controlled entirerly by switches that as been known to go out on people. You pop a fuse on that baby and no brakes!The other two systems has a back up system that allows you some braking power to help stop in the event of brake failure. The Hydroboost from what I've heard has the most reserve back up power. The Hydroboost is a proven system...think what system they actually installed on the 83-85 GN's? They've been using the Hydro boost for decades with little issues. Now not to make this sound to byiest, the same could be said for the Vaccum systems.

 

[Ormand]

Sorry but I'm not trusting my life to a brake system controlled entirerly by switches

Maybe your Powermaster works differently from mine. The switch- and there is only one- is not involved at all in stopping the car. The accumulator has sufficient charge to stop the car, at least once. The function of the switch is to turn on the pump, and rechare the accumulator after it loses some pressure. And when it blows a fuse (never happened on mine) you still have brakes, just no power assist. When the motor went out on my first PM, I had some warning. But it went out before I could get home. I managed to avoid running over anything, because the brakes still worked. Without depending on switches.
But I agree with Tin Man- it's hard to keep the PM going any more. He managed to spend LESS than the $350 you might spend on the rebuilt PM, and got a better system. Some of us judge brakes by other criteria than the ability to hold the car still after it has stopped.

 

[turbot2496]

Some of us judge brakes by other criteria than the ability to hold the car still after it has stopped.

I just figure once you buy the reman unit you don't have to worry about parts with the warranty, and I thought people had been having good luck with them. I never really thought the powermaster settup was that dangerous, but it is definatly somewhat inferior. Nice to know there is a better option than vacuum if the time comes that the powermasters are not available.

 

[SVORay]

Maybe your Powermaster works differently from mine. The switch- and there is only one- is not involved at all in stopping the car. The accumulator has sufficient charge to stop the car, at least once. The function of the switch is to turn on the pump, and rechare the accumulator after it loses some pressure. And when it blows a fuse (never happened on mine) you still have brakes, just no power assist. When the motor went out on my first PM, I had some warning. But it went out before I could get home. I managed to avoid running over anything, because the brakes still worked. Without depending on switches.
But I agree with Tin Man- it's hard to keep the PM going any more. He managed to spend LESS than the $350 you might spend on the rebuilt PM, and got a better system. Some of us judge brakes by other criteria than the ability to hold the car still after it has stopped.

That statement was just a figure of speech. The fact of the matter is, PM's have failed and in doing so, have caused wrecks. Just because it hasn't happened to you or I, doesn't mean it hasn't happened at all. There is a guy posting over on that "vaccum poll" thread who just wrecked a GN because his PM went south for the winter. Anyhow, I strongly suggest everyone to look into the subject and deside for them selves. I've already desided my brake booster is going to be newer than 20 years old.

 

[POWERBRAKEBOB]

Hydroboosts

Always Compare Like For Like. Gbody Sells A "new" Vacuum Booster Set Up. Those Are Reproduction Units Made In China. We Have Them For Those Who Want Them. $265.00, If That's What You Want. Boosters On Turbocharged Cars For Very Good Reasons. They Had The Same Choice. They Went For The More Expensive Choice. Hydratech Does Not Buy Direct From Bosch, The Successor To Bendix And The Current Manufacturer Of The H/b. Hydratech Isn't Even In The Power Brake Business. They Buy Surplus Humvee H/b's From An Exporter And Modify Them. They Also Charge An Upcharge For The Master Cyl Of $100.00. Their Hose Kit Uses Only 2 Stainless Hoses. Ours Is Complete With The 2 Returns In Stainless Instead Of Mixing Rubber And Stainless. These Cars Shouldn't Have The "cheapest" Brake System You Can Buy, But The Best. It's Your Car, Your Choice, And Your Life. Maybe Your Family's? It Is Intersting To Note That You Guys Are Actually Looking At The Hydroboost Now, And 2-3 Years Ago, When I Brought It Up, It Was Something From Outer Space. O.k., We're Making Progress....

 

[Hot Air]

Bob,
Conrad Carter from North Carolina here. As you may recall, I bought the $285 SS hose kit from earlier this year but my return line is rubber. Can I return it to you and get the SS return line(s)? I'd be glad to pay the shipping charge.
Conrad

ps...Engine is running..sort of. No test of HB yet.

 

[Ormand]

The fact of the matter is, PM's have failed and in doing so, have caused wrecks

I'm sure that is true. But it is also true of ball joints, springs, drive shafts, axles, etc. And of brakes with vacuum boosters. The problem with the PM is that they are 20 years old, and some of the parts aren't made any more, so it is very hard, maybe impossible, to get them back into "new" condition. So, I'm in favor of giving up on the PM, but I don't agree that it was totally unsafe in the beginning.
The master cylinder upgrade from Hydratech is not $100.
There seems go be a claim by Power Brake Bob that his systems have all stainless hoses- but maybe the hose set that Conrad got for $285 was the exception?

 

[Lee Thompson]

? for POWERBRAKEBOB

If you look back on the old post you will see that I said to ignore all the naysayers about hyd. boost. I have a tech @ for you. I have converted over to the S-10 dual caliper piston front brakes. I still have my original 85 hyd. boost master cyl. The problem I am having is that the pistons don't retract enough to completely free the rotor. I have TOO much drag. I assume when I release the brake that line pressure goes to 0 since I can loosen the bleed valve and there is no pressure there. Do I need to change to a different master cyl. and if so what do I need to use. I noticed that the S-10 uses a 1/4 in. line over to the junction bracket where mine is 3/16. Having said that the hole in the caliper end of the flex line looks to be around .100. Thanks for your time.
BTW the calipers have been rebuilt with new seals and dust seals from GM.

 

[POWERBRAKEBOB]

Hydroboost Stuff

Hi Conrad. No Problem. Let Me Know The Lengths Of The Return Hose And We Will Send It. Hurry Up And Get That Thing Burnin' Rubber

 

[POWERBRAKEBOB]

Caliper Drag

Hi Lee. If You Loosen The Bleeder And The Caliper Still Drags, Then The Rest Of The System Is Out Of The Equation. We Have Rebuilt Calipers Using "assembly Fluid" It Is Very Slick, And The Piston Slides In Easily. The Problem With That Is The Only Retraction Iin The Caliper Is The Grip Of The Square O Ring On The Piston. The Seal Has To Be Tight On The Piston. When You Apply The Brakes The Fluid Pushes The Piston Out, And Then The Sq. O Ring's Grip Pulls It Back When The Distended O Ring Goes Back To Square. Old, Over Heated Calipers Have This Problem When The O Ring Is Too Hardened To Pull Back, Then The Pads Overheat, Making It Go Bad Quicker. Assuming The Slides Are Free, You Must Disassemble The Cal. Pistons, Dry Off The With Alcohol, Put A Little Brake Fluid On The O Ring, And Push The Piston In Dry.then The O Ring Can Grip The Piston And Pull It Off The Rotor.

 

[Lee Thompson]

makes sense

I knew the square o-ring was the only thing that pulled the piston back. Yes, I did assemble with lube--will do as you say--Thank you so much.

 

[SVORay]

I'm sure that is true. But it is also true of ball joints, springs, drive shafts, axles, etc. And of brakes with vacuum boosters. The problem with the PM is that they are 20 years old, and some of the parts aren't made any more, so it is very hard, maybe impossible, to get them back into "new" condition. So, I'm in favor of giving up on the PM, but I don't agree that it was totally unsafe in the beginning.
The master cylinder upgrade from Hydratech is not $100.
There seems go be a claim by Power Brake Bob that his systems have all stainless hoses- but maybe the hose set that Conrad got for $285 was the exception?

Everything is man made and designed by nature to fail it seems. How many airplane parts have failed over the years since they first arived. The same thing with common parts like car tires. I worked for Ford during the time of Firestones last major recall. Those tires was dealer installed and caused the life of countless people. In order to figure out what is more a danger to us or anyone else in regards to our cars you need some data to back it up. I've yet to see one thread on here envolving a ball joint failure or a spring failure etc. Just do a search on brakes and you'll find atleast 20 threads. As far as driveshafts go, you know why those fail...lets see how many fail under stock condition. In my lifetime, I've never heard of one failing that was stock and installed on a factory set up car. Now I've seen bad U-joints but mostly high mileage and never servied. This whole thing is pointless, we both want brakes for our own reasons.

 

[Ormand]

I worked for Ford during the time of Firestones last major recall

According to Firestone, there was nothing wrong with their tires- except that FORD wanted them run with too little air pressure. You weren't involved in that decision, were you?

 

[Ormand]

By the way, I worked for Ford in the late '60s. And there was a medium truck at the time that had a number of accidents due to suspension failures. Unfortunately, it was the chassis used for school buses, as well as medium trucks. (not my fault) But it's just an example of how different vehicles have different problems. The PM is a turbo Buick problem, but if you spend time on other boards, I'm sure you will find that other cars have their own weak points.

 

[dyermullet]

According to Firestone, there was nothing wrong with their tires- except that FORD wanted them run with too little air pressure. You weren't involved in that decision, were you?

That is total bull****. Both sides were at fault ford for running the tires with so low inflation and Firestone for making tires that couldn't wistand the heat that when run under inflated.

Here is my reasoning. 90% of the cars on the road have under inflated tires becasue the owners never check their tire inflating except for when the oil change places do it for them. Are their tires consistantly exploding?
My parrents had an explorer at that time and it had the same recomended low air pressure......... but it came with goodyears and not firestones. If it was fords fault for recomending low pressure why was it the explorers with goodyears never had any problems? The reason is they were designed to run underinflated without a failure since the engineers know that 90% of the cars on the road have underinflated tires.

Now I don't know for sure what the actual stastic is on under inflated but I work at an oil change place (part time money while I am in school) and 9 out of 10 cars need air in the tires.

Also as a side note, I have seen more tire failures dealing with firestones than any other brand. People come in with a flat tire to be repaired I air it up and air is leaking out the side wall since the inner liner has failed. I have had that a few times never with other brands. Also I've had a few firestones fall apart when I am dismounting them to repair and nail or such. I have had probably 20 different firestons that have good tread but are dry rotted and fall apart. I have only had one other tire do that and it was some no name brand.

 

[SVORay]

According to Firestone, there was nothing wrong with their tires- except that FORD wanted them run with too little air pressure. You weren't involved in that decision, were you?

How do you know?


Anyways, everyone was at fault, including some vehicle owners in my opinion. The average tires looses about 1psi per 10 degrees in tempature drop. So if the temp drops 20 degrees out side, you're going to loose 2psi of tire pressure etc. Like stated above, most people don't check their tire pressure at all! This leads to uneven ware on the tire and even more serious issues like loss of vehicle control. Now the crazy part, none of this explains any of the issues I saw with the Firestone Wilderness ATF tires. Everyone of them I saw a problem with, was BRAND new on SUV's with less than 10k on them during the summer. These tires sperated on people driving down the road. I saw one Expedition loose a tire just after leaving the parking lot doing 20 mph...brand new! Then Ford /Firestone issued a recall stating we check for certain Dot numbers. these number where believed to be the bad tires...this held out until the new approved Dot numbered tires started poping as well. I later heard that some pissed off plant worker was spiking the rubber mix...even heard how some bugs crawled into the rubber mix and messed it up. All this info above and below was told by first person and not some memo.


Anyhow, as far as Firestone is concerned, I live 150 miles from a Firtestone testing track. The only way to and from there track was basicaly from our Airport. They shipped the cars/tires by truck and everyone else flew. Since I do tons of traveling I always ended up chatting with some of them heading out to the track. They told me that Ford ordered the wrong type of tire made for the Explorer...keep in mind I saw 50/50 on tire seperation for the Firstones. Anyhow, why Firestone even made the tire that according to them wouldn't be safe is beyound me. They also told me about the tire pressure loosing psi during tempature loss, as well as all the failed tires was 10 years or older. They couldn't explain to me how I had brand new Firestone wilderness ATF's poping on me The next year or so, Ford redid some suspenssion work on the new Explorers. I left shortly after this started and never looked into what was done to improve them. These tires was baned world wide before Ford/Firestone recalled the tires.


Now for a weird one, guess what tire GM installed on their SUV's in the following years Ok, it wasn't the Firestone Wilderness AFT's, It was the Firestone Filderness LS or something like that. I always found that to be funnt for some odd reason.


Anyways, I can go forever on faulty parts from Ford but I really would like to see some thread/reports on Faulty 80' GN Ball joints or Springs! I know I can find pages on the PM's but can't seem to find anything about the other.

 

[Ormand]

I know I can find pages on the PM's

Can you find class action lawsuits? There were plenty in the Ford/Firestone fiasco. But no one in relation the PM. There have been plenty of recalls for safety issues, too. Not for the PM, though. There was a recall of the pressure switch, and one for the cast iron como valve, but neither was of "must replace safety issue" type. Sure, the PM has problems. But NOT of the "oh my god the sky is falling" variety. What were you smoking when you read any mention of faulty ball joints or springs on '80s GNs?

 

[SVORay]

Sure, the PM has problems. But NOT of the "oh my god the sky is falling" variety. What were you smoking when you read any mention of faulty ball joints or springs on '80s GNs?

I don't drink and I do smoke George


This is about opinions, and no matter what you say, you want change mine and I want change yours.

one part recall
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/brakes/usrecall.html

http://www.cartrackers.com/Forums/live/YourLemon/197.html


It's a fact that GM did recall part or parts of the PM system. So maybe there is enough systems floating around out there that never did the recall? Who knows but I'm still buying a different system.

 

[Ormand]

I see you mention both recalls that I had already noted above. But you fail to mention that neither of them was made to correct a condition which could cause a crash or safety hazzard. And yes, I understand that I'm not going to change your opinion. But your opinion will not change the FACT that the PM was never a safety issue. You can't argue with that point, since there were no SAFETY recalls, nor were there class action lawsuits that indicate a safety issue.

 

[SVORay]

I see you mention both recalls that I had already noted above. But you fail to mention that neither of them was made to correct a condition which could cause a crash or safety hazzard. And yes, I understand that I'm not going to change your opinion. But your opinion will not change the FACT that the PM was never a safety issue. You can't argue with that point, since there were no SAFETY recalls, nor were there class action lawsuits that indicate a safety issue.

There is tons of crap produced every day that should be recalled...my Harley brakes and heads to name a few. The manufacture weighs the cost of the recall and figures in the cost of not doing it. If it doesn't look good for them on paper, then they will recall it. The firestone tires was a world wide issue that envolved 20+ times the amount of every Powermaster made. So you couldn't simply ignore it and fight it out in small courts. The issues with Powermasters failing would probaly be to small to even deal with and there is probaly a staute of limitaions of when a manufacture can recall an item/vehicle. I know a manufacture must offer parts on a vehicle ten years after It's built but anything after that is optional. The PM's probaly didn't start manfuctioning until years later. It doesn't matter if GM recalled them or not, the fact still remains, people are having brake failure that is resulting in wrecks. I'm sure this weigh in on your mind when you decided to switch over to Hydroboost besides the cost. The Hydroboost systems alone cost twice as much and the going rebuilt PM's. Then there is the question of wether or not your booster needed replaced to begin with?

Inconclution, you're probaly right about there never been a serious enough issue with the Pm's to be recalled...even in small courts. The cars effected could be a fluke or simply a handfull out of thousands of cars using PM's. It's threads like ours that will serve as a recall notice to people world wide. This is an internet age we live in, people research their soon to be cars all the time. So they can set back and read through all of this and decide for them selves if It's an item they can live with and trust around their families. As for me, I never researched anything one these cars. I simply did not care, this has been a dream car to me since the mid 80's. I've worked for Ford and owned enough cars to reallize there is always some imperfection when designing and building cars. So I research and study the vehicles systems and try to over come those imperfections. As for my Regals braking system, I don;'t know for sure what the total out come with be but for now I'm going with a Hydroboost. I have a little boy who will be very happy once I do, the car has been parked and he hasn't been able to go for a ride in it since I deemded the brakes bad.