Is my trans sucking all the oil out of the pan?

[BEATAV8]

I have one of the big pumps in my 200R4, and a stock pan with a spacer. Anyways it was sucking all the oil out of the pan, which I found due to an RPM flare on the shifts. Overfilling it 1 qt took care of that problem. Shifts are fine at 5500RPM now. Trans was also pulled down just make sure it was OK too. Everything was fine.

At the track she again shifted fine, but went through the traps at 6000 RPM and 126 MPH. Which I am told is too high an RPM for 28" tires at that speed. She hit 6000RPM about 2 seconds before the traps, and sorta floated there while the car still gained MPH.

I'm thinking it is still sucking up all the oil at high RPM, including the extra quart... and I definitely need to upgrade to a deep aluminum pan ASAP. What do you think?

 

[chris718]

excessive back door rpm with a non slipping transmission will point to a bad converter or a converter that is non locking.is it a lock up converter?

 

[BEATAV8]

not locking it at WOT right now. it's a vigilante 3200 stall.

thanks for the reply by the way Chris

 

[BEATAV8]

So does 6000 RPM @ 126 on 28" tires seem reasonable for this converter unlocked?

Regardless.... I'm still going to upgrade to a genuine deep aluminum pan ASAP.

Just wondering if the torque converter is suspect, or if maybe there's a better converter I should try, or if I should try locking it at 90MPH or so next time out.

thanks again, I appreciate your time

 

[chris718]

the rpm is excessive.i would lock it up and see what you have then.as for the pan we have them in stock.if your interested phone in.

 

[bison]

There is no room for a bigger pump in the trans. More vanes doesnt equal more volume. The dimensions are built into the pump cavity and pump slide. Your converter is just very lousy unlocked.

 

[BEATAV8]

Understood. Seems there are others experiencing lousy big end perf with the vigilante too. I'm thinking about getting a different converter already.

 

[WE4]

Here is the geniune pan you will desire

So does 6000 RPM @ 126 on 28" tires seem reasonable for this converter unlocked?

Regardless.... I'm still going to upgrade to a genuine deep aluminum pan ASAP.

Just wondering if the torque converter is suspect, or if maybe there's a better converter I should try, or if I should try locking it at 90MPH or so next time out.

thanks again, I appreciate your time

The pan kits come with the PTS Xtreme "Bottom Feeder sump system" , all the stainless allen bolts with washers, drain plug bung welded in, new fibre pan gasket and Instructions. These pans have the nicest welding I have ever seen. They are absolutly beautiful!! Ask ANYONE who has purchased. It will solve your "cavitation" problem. The following links will show you the pans and the sumps. They are shown seperate but come as a kit. This addition to your trans is the best upgrade you can make for the money.

Product Information
Deep and shallow pan kits

Just to look at the sump that comes with it are here:
Product Information
Shallow sump

Product Information
Deep Sump.


These pans are GREAT!!!.
To order, if interested, give us a ring and we will get one right out.
916-739-0510

Performance Transmission Services

Bruce
WE4

 

[BEATAV8]

thanks for the info on the pan there WE4.

 

[BEATAV8]

I'm a bit nervous about locking this converter on my next pass guys... it's just a single disc, and I'm pretty sure my car has enough power for mid 10's, maybe better. (already went 10.9 on its first pass!) What do you think?

I was also wondering if a good synthetic fluid might improve converter efficiency. I understand that the synthetics typically run cooler, right? Improved temperature control would mean lower oil viscosity and potentially better coupling in the converter? I have a pile of royal purple ATF I could try.

 

[bison]

Your slip is around 16%. Id look at getting a better converter. Your leaving 2-3 mph on the table here. Oil isnt going to change the slip %.

 

[WE4]

Bison, Not to contradict you ,but think about this...

Your slip is around 16%. Id look at getting a better converter. Your leaving 2-3 mph on the table here. Oil isnt going to change the slip %.

Your calculations are right. But think about this. If it were sucking air or low on fluid for any reason, it possibly could be slipping for two reasons.
1) If the converter isn't staying full, it could be losing effeicency.
2) It also could be starting to slip either through the clutches and/or the lock up clutch if in fact it was locked and sucking air or low on fluid pressure or volume for whatever reason.

Bison, do you agree this could be possible? I am not arguing with you, I am just trying to help maybe solve the mystery and contribute. You are very much correct in the converter could be the issue, however, I think if a pressure gauge was installed and followed it just may reveal some other issue or issues.
That is what this thread is, correct? A discussion. Just something that crossed my mind as I read this thread. What do you think?

More eyes, more minds, better conclusions, eh right?
LOL
Do you agree?

Bruce
We4
Performance Transmission Services

 

[bison]

Your calculations are right. But think about this. If it were sucking air or low on fluid for any reason, it possibly could be slipping for two reasons.
1) If the converter isn't staying full, it could be losing effeicency.
2) It also could be starting to slip either through the clutches and/or the lock up clutch if in fact it was locked and sucking air or low on fluid pressure or volume for whatever reason.

Bison, do you agree this could be possible? I am not arguing with you, I am just trying to help maybe solve the mystery and contribute. You are very much correct in the converter could be the issue, however, I think if a pressure gauge was installed and followed it just may reveal some other issue or issues.
That is what this thread is, correct? A discussion. Just something that crossed my mind as I read this thread. What do you think?

More eyes, more minds, better conclusions, eh right?
LOL
Do you agree?

Bruce
We4
Performance Transmission Services

I agree that it could be cavitating but i think it would be more noticebale in low gear with the stock pan and the associated slosh and top feed filter. Youd think the band/drum and and directs/steels would get hurt before the converter slip would increase in 3rd with air in it since the g's in 3rd are way less than 1st and 2nd. Especially up top with maybe .3-.4g's in a hard running 10 second car at the 1000 ft mark. Hardly enough to cause a problem with the pickup becoming uncovered even with the stock pan and pickup unless it was really low to begin with. But then the band and directs would be done in one pass. Its possible that it is cavitating a little and the line is still enough to keep the band and directs form slipping and maybe it takes longer to fill the converter after it gets a little air in it causing lousy couplng. That could definitely be possible. You as well as i know that even with a stock pan overfilled it will cavitate with the stock pickup with anything even running in the 1.70's for a 60'. I remember talking to you about this back in 1998. You actually did a bunch of testing with different combos and i think you still got a very noticeable dip when gong over 1 quart over. He hasnt tried to lock it yet. Maybe it will come down if he does. He should have a pan anyway at this point so id throw in a 700 solenoid if not already there and put one of your pans on.

MJRWOOD if you lock it at WOT make sure you have a GM 700 R-4 solenoid in there. They are much more reliable under higher pressures than the stock 200 4-R one.

 

[jakeshoe]

I'll also add based on my experience in a heavy 12 second Chevelle using the stock pan, that I never had issue on the 1-2 shift, but always had issue on the 2-3 from a standing start.
I think the car launched hard enough and was into 2nd well before the fluid pickup was an issue, but on the 2-3 shift, the fluid was still caught at the back of the pan and beginning to aerate.

I installed the Art Carr style pan and 700 filter and totally solved the problem.

I will say, I just installed another of these pans a couple of days ago, and the fitment sucked. It wasn't clearing the 1-2 accum housing or the TCC solenoid. Took about 20 minutes with a die grinder to make it fit.

 

[77 cruiser]

Put a gauge on it & make a pass.

 

[bison]

Put a gauge on it & make a pass.

Id recommend the pan first.

 

[BEATAV8]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm gonna swap the pan ASAP and post whether or not there's an effect.

 

[Boost231]

cant go wrong with the pan. i just ordered my PTS deep pan and let me tell you its one nice piece. now i know for sure my tranny is getting proper oil. if that doesnt fix it put a gauge on it and see whats up.

 

[jakeshoe]

I'm going to use the Hughes pans from now on.

 

[Boost231]

i think you need to run something other then the stock pan if your drag racing. dont want to risk a tranny over a stupid $200 part.