Labonte Motorsports Alky

[mschaffer66]

I saw this in the ad block up top last night.

VC-25 - 25psi Boost Activated Turbo, Centrifugal

Has anyone had any experience with their stuff?

It seems pretty cheap, but if you think about what goes into making a basic progressive controller it should be.

I know most people go with the smc or razor kit.

Any thoughts?

 

[Labonte]

Anybody that has been using snow stuff from 2003-2007 has experience with our products as Labonte was the engineering and manufacture behind the electronics.

Would suggest if you still have stock MAF look into the ISG-MAF system. It is the only one on the market that can read the Karman Vortex MAF sensor on the turbo buicks. Due to fast spooling turbos, the MAF based controller would offer more accurate injection control based on engine load.

Best regards,

Dan

 

[SGRIM]

Anybody that has been using snow stuff from 2003-2007 has experience with our products as Labonte was the engineering and manufacture behind the electronics.

Would suggest if you still have stock MAF look into the ISG-MAF system. It is the only one on the market that can read the Karman Vortex MAF sensor on the turbo buicks. Due to fast spooling turbos, the MAF based controller would offer more accurate injection control based on engine load.

Best regards,

Dan

Jay has been talking with you guys. Looks like we are going to package your system with our new controller!

 

[scot w.]

Anybody that has been using snow stuff from 2003-2007 has experience with our products as Labonte was the engineering and manufacture behind the electronics.

Would suggest if you still have stock MAF look into the ISG-MAF system. It is the only one on the market that can read the Karman Vortex MAF sensor on the turbo buicks. Due to fast spooling turbos, the MAF based controller would offer more accurate injection control based on engine load.

Best regards,

Dan

Question on your MAF based controllers.

1) Since they are controlled from the MAF what happens if your MAF isn't putting out the factory 255 Grams of Air Per Second @ WOT? (My guess is the MAF based controller would also cut the injection back @ WOT due to the MAF not putting out what it should) Correct?

2) Isn't it true that MAF based systems are Boost limited due to the MAF? Example: The stock MAF at WOT= 255gps = Around 15lbs boost?

3) What happens to your system with the use of different MAF's?
Like the 3" LT1 MAF?
Or the 3.5" LS1 MAF?
Because there are ALOT of people here without the stock MAF's on their car.

I just see ALOT more MAF's FAIL than I do 3-bar MAP's and if a MAF fails I suspect the MAF based methanol Injection would too!!

Scot W.

 

[Labonte]

Question on your MAF based controllers.

1) Since they are controlled from the MAF what happens if your MAF isn't putting out the factory 255 Grams of Air Per Second @ WOT? (My guess is the MAF based controller would also cut the injection back @ WOT due to the MAF not putting out what it should) Correct?

2) Isn't it true that MAF based systems are Boost limited due to the MAF? Example: The stock MAF at WOT= 255gps = Around 15lbs boost?

3) What happens to your system with the use of different MAF's?
Like the 3" LT1 MAF?
Or the 3.5" LS1 MAF?
Because there are ALOT of people here without the stock MAF's on their car.

I just see ALOT more MAF's FAIL than I do 3-bar MAP's and if a MAF fails I suspect the MAF based methanol Injection would too!!

Scot W.

Hello Scot, good questions.

The system uses the MAF signal to determin airflow into engine which represents load. So if at WOT and low signal from MAF, meth injection would be less.

If the sensor fails then yes meth injection would be off, so would use a fail safe monitor based on how aggressive the tune is and how much you are leaning out the AFR for meth.

If you go with a blow through setup and remove the MAF, then a boost referance system would be the correct option.

For those that go to the larger MAF, the controller has a switch that you would select to be compatable with the later model GM MAFs.

Best regards,

Dan

 

[Labonte]

Jay has been talking with you guys. Looks like we are going to package your system with our new controller!

Sounds good, with our new 250psi pump, this offers a better system then the older 150 pumps. We are always looking for ways to improve the product and make install simpler for the customer. If you need a custom cunfiguration for the Turbo Buick just let me know and would be glad to work that out with you.

Best regards,

Dan

 

[TurboDave]

Hello Scot, good questions.

The system uses the MAF signal to determin airflow into engine which represents load. So if at WOT and low signal from MAF, meth injection would be less.

If the sensor fails then yes meth injection would be off, so would use a fail safe monitor based on how aggressive the tune is and how much you are leaning out the AFR for meth.

If you go with a blow through setup and remove the MAF, then a boost referance system would be the correct option.

For those that go to the larger MAF, the controller has a switch that you would select to be compatable with the later model GM MAFs.

Best regards,

Dan

One additional point, and Scot asked this.

I'll ask because I'm having difficulty tuning a system with this controller (actuall a Snow controller).

Stock ECM
Stock GM maf

Now, because of this, the stock MAF/ECM combo will hit it's maximum of 255gps at a modestly low boost level of 14-15# of boost. Like most Buick turbo applications, this setup can easilly run 20# of boost on straight 93 octane, and with meth. should be capable of running 24+#'s of boost.

Soooooo. How do we mitigate the problem of running more than 15# of boost when the MAF based meth system on a stock GM MAF stops measuring above 15# of boost.

Basically speaking the meth controller doesn't realize that there's a lot more going on above the 255gps limit.

 

[TurboBob]

Some notes:

The stock Buick MAF is not Karman Vortex. It is a hot-film MAF, similar technology to the late model GM hot-wire MAFs. Its frequency range is 34hz - 143 hz and tops out at around 255 grans/sec. This top end limitation varies from MAF to MAF so it cannot be relied upon. So above 15 psi or so your alcohol injection will not increase.

So for a Snow/Labonte style system, boost sensing would be the way to run it.

Another thing about MAF's in general, they read too high during spoolup with large intercoolers. This is due to the extra flow required to fill the intercooler volume and pressurize it. So as the boost rises you will get more alcohol injected than you would expect.

Generally, with turbo engines making a lot of power, MAP based injection is the way to go, both with the fuel injection (speed density) and supplemental injection (alcohol, propane, etc.)

Bob

 

[scot w.]

As I suspected!

 

[TurboDave]

Some notes:

The stock Buick MAF is not Karman Vortex. It is a hot-film MAF, similar technology to the late model GM hot-wire MAFs. Its frequency range is 34hz - 143 hz and tops out at around 255 grans/sec. This top end limitation varies from MAF to MAF so it cannot be relied upon. So above 15 psi or so your alcohol injection will not increase.

So for a Snow/Labonte style system, boost sensing would be the way to run it.

Another thing about MAF's in general, they read too high during spoolup with large intercoolers. This is due to the extra flow required to fill the intercooler volume and pressurize it. So as the boost rises you will get more alcohol injected than you would expect.

Generally, with turbo engines making a lot of power, MAP based injection is the way to go, both with the fuel injection (speed density) and supplemental injection (alcohol, propane, etc.)

Bob

Perfectly understandable, and I fully agree. But....Unfortunately, John's Hybrid came with a Snow MAF based system on it, so it is what it is. We're trying to figure out how to get the best out of it. Upgrading to a MAP based controller would be very costly it seems. :frown:

I just wish these companies that sell these MAF based systems would advise their customers better. MAF based systems would be perfect for N/A motors or those that run lower boost levels, but are NOT the way to go with systems like ours.

 

[TurboBob]

you can run a MAF translator and feed the Snow system from the late model GM MAF.

Bob

 

[TurboDave]

you can run a MAF translator and feed the Snow system from the late model GM MAF.

Bob

He is, but not running an extender chip, so the 255 limit is still there. Or is there something I'm missing?

 

[TurboBob]

what chip?

But, the MAF signal going into the Translator is not limited. You just have to set the Snow unit to accept a high frequency MAF signal (I think)

Bob

 

[TurboDave]

what chip?

But, the MAF signal going into the Translator is not limited. You just have to set the Snow unit to accept a high frequency MAF signal (I think)

Bob

Hmmm, interesting. I'll have to look into that the next time I get over to NC. I'll have to see where this particular Snow unit is tapped into, whether before or after the Translator.


After checking the Snow site, I'm sure this is the unit they call the GM low frequency MAF controller. It's for GM 86-9x MAF's

 

[coolingmist]

We have a system that can be configured to MAF for your vehicles. I hate it when one vendor makes a claim of being the only one can.

Ours...In addition, you can setup an 8 X 8 Grid and integrate TPS or MAP or RPM. this eliminates issues that some of you have addressed.

For example, this case they use MAP and RPM, but can just as easily be MAF or whatever you like. The advantage is that you dont need to have a perfectly linear curve, its up to you what you want to make it.

our HZ frequency range is 2HZ to 20 KZ, user can setup any range in between.

Just thought I would share for any of you tech minded folks that have alot of time on your hands.

 

[Grumpy]

Just thought I would share for any of you tech minded folks that have alot of time on your hands.

well winter is here so everyone that wants to reinvent the wheel has 3 more months to do it:biggrin: . Then show the RESULTS on the track

 

[SGRIM]

Guys we have brought together some of the best knowledge out there on TB's to bring you a new controller that will simply surpass all these hands down...

Not re-inventing the wheel by no means... No guessing just enter your stuff in pick a setting and it rocks!

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/alcohol-nitrous-propane-tech/272804-progress-isac.html

Remember this is built for the TR first by the TR electronics man IMO:biggrin: Huge thanks to him!!!!!!!

 

[coolingmist]

BTW,

Its always nice too see other companies come out with software based controllers.


For those that want to see some stats on ours. Ours is a stand alone controller, failsafe, a controller that can create a map to use with an external progressive controller, 5 channel window switch, propane controller, nitrous controller and more.


Water Injection, Methanol Injection, Alcohol Injection Systems | Coolingmist

configurable software screenshot here, this is just one tab, there are others, too many to list here.:

 

[salvageV6]

Light years ahead of the competition.

Reinvent the DIY Shurflo pump wheel?, never. :biggrin:

Or the non-progressive SMC kit wheel?, never. :biggrin:

 

[Labonte]

Some notes:

The stock Buick MAF is not Karman Vortex. It is a hot-film MAF, similar technology to the late model GM hot-wire MAFs. Its frequency range is 34hz - 143 hz and tops out at around 255 grans/sec. This top end limitation varies from MAF to MAF so it cannot be relied upon. So above 15 psi or so your alcohol injection will not increase.

So for a Snow/Labonte style system, boost sensing would be the way to run it.

Another thing about MAF's in general, they read too high during spoolup with large intercoolers. This is due to the extra flow required to fill the intercooler volume and pressurize it. So as the boost rises you will get more alcohol injected than you would expect.

Generally, with turbo engines making a lot of power, MAP based injection is the way to go, both with the fuel injection (speed density) and supplemental injection (alcohol, propane, etc.)

Bob

Bob, thanks for the correction. I thought that might have been incorrect when I posted and should have checked my notes on Buicks before posting.
My appologies.

GM used the AC Rochester Hot Film MAF starting in 1984 on the 3.0L and 3.8L and then later in 1990 switched to the Hitachi Hot Film MAF on the 3.3L and 3.8L.

MAP based injection works well, but depends on the type of turbo and if it can hold boost to redline. As seen in the chart below, the turbo on this engine makes peak boost quickly and then drops off. In this case a MAF based system would be a better option. The MAP based controller would reach peak injection flow to soon and then meth would drop toward redline where it is needed more.