TE60......when is it out of breath?

[TTA976]

It's dangerous?

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Small compressor wheel spinning at its upper limits may be able to create more boost but a significant part of it is from heat not from actually compressing more air... It's actually beating the air harder. The serious downside is the increased speed that the small compressor wheel must spin. With a wheel at its upper limit when the throttle plates close, there is a major spike in the thrust loading of the compressor wheel due to the sudden back pressure generated.

 

[TTA976]

It was the wrong turbo? How so? I'm confident I could get 10.30's out of a 60-1.

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The boost drops because the smaller wheel can't produce the volume of air needed...or you had a boost leak, doubt it.

I'd use a slightly larger compressor wheel, spinning slower, running a lower pressure ratio with a higher volume, and due to greater efficiency and cooler intake air, get more power from an engine.

 

[bison]

Small compressor wheel spinning at its upper limits may be able to create more boost but a significant part of it is from heat not from actually compressing more air... It's actually beating the air harder. The serious downside is the increased speed that the small compressor wheel must spin. With a wheel at its upper limit when the throttle plates close, there is a major spike in the thrust loading of the compressor wheel due to the sudden back pressure generated.

There's no easy way to overspeed a t04e60 on a T31. The turbine doesn't have enough leverage and exhaust pressure will get very high before overspending. There's a major spike in pressure when the throttle closes fast with any compressor wheel if the manifold pressure is high. The thrust loading on throttle closure is determined by the cross section on the back of the wheel and the pressure not the compressor wheel itself. A 62 at .a given pressure with its larger backing would have significantly more thrust load than a t04e60 at the same pressure . If it was making all heat power would fall off as we increased manifold pressure but it didn't. The sad thing is Adam's engine makes more power than a lot of racers with much more thrown at them and it spools very fast even on a stock converter.


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[bison]

The boost drops because the smaller wheel can't produce the volume of air needed...or you had a boost leak, doubt it.

I'd use a slightly larger compressor wheel, spinning slower, running a lower pressure ratio with a higher volume, and due to greater efficiency and cooler intake air, get more power from an engine.

Spinning slower? Might have a problem with that with his wastegate strategy. Like said he can drive right around others with much more done. He knows there's power in a turbo but with the stock converter, internal wastegate, and stock ecu he isn't looking to change just the turbo. FYI the boost dropped when I ran a 62 on my engine but it still went 9's on it



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[Mr.Spool]

The boost drops because the smaller wheel can't produce the volume of air needed...or you had a boost leak, doubt it.

I'd use a slightly larger compressor wheel, spinning slower, running a lower pressure ratio with a higher volume, and due to greater efficiency and cooler intake air, get more power from an engine.

With respect all this turbo talk solely depends on the engine.in every buick case I have seen from 8sec to 14 sec spinning the compressor wheel slower = a slow ass car that is until you run out of compressor.

 

[deezdad]

Is it beneficial to go larger than a te60 with a stock/stockish cam?

 

[V6sleeper]

Is it beneficial to go larger than a te60 with a stock/stockish cam?

Few years back on a stockish motor I tried a multitude of combo's, nothing spooled quicker and hit the sweet spot harder then a old T-netics cpt44 ball bearing .63 from cotton which is a 60-1 comp wheel and a 57 turbine ,using a 0-pump vigilante.. with stock heads I wouldn't go bigger then that imo.

 

[TTA976]

Few years back on a stockish motor I tried a multitude of combo's, nothing spooled quicker and hit the sweet spot harder then a old T-netics cpt44 ball bearing .63 from cotton which is a 60-1 comp wheel and a 57 turbine ,using a 0-pump vigilante.. with stock heads I wouldn't go bigger then that imo.

The comp/turbine/ar all match and work well together. That CPT44 is a BB turbo with a true .63 Anytime you have a BB with a .63 it's gonna spool like lightning...but

Still , when choosing our application with good fuel/alky, we should be aiming for a compressor with PR of greater than 3.0. Not this 59mm

There are better options.

Now look at T61..it's the same 61mm compressor that was used in the 6131,6152,6165. Know lots of people who liked and had good times with 6152. It's a good match of wheels.

Again, staying with the thread topic TE60...not saying the 60-1 with a stage 3 , 5, p-trim etc isn't a good turbo. But I'd use something else for high pressure high boost application.

These compressor maps are not prefect but they are a good guide to look at when choosing a compressor wheel for a specific application.

 

[TTA976]

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/pressure_ratio

So, at 26-27# boost moving mid to high 40's#/min with good fuel, we are in the ballpark of 3.0+ PR.
That's wayyyy out of efficiency island of 60-1

Not trying to sound like a know it all, a hole, jerk just trying to help.

 

[Mr.Spool]

Few years back on a stockish motor I tried a multitude of combo's, nothing spooled quicker and hit the sweet spot harder then a old T-netics cpt44 ball bearing .63 from cotton which is a 60-1 comp wheel and a 57 turbine ,using a 0-pump vigilante.. with stock heads I wouldn't go bigger then that imo.

I like your real world experience.on the street a combo like this hits hard and fast

 

[TTA976]

I like your real world experience.on the street a combo like this hits hard and fast

Feel like your taking a stab at me..lol..

Ur right i would never put a 59mm with .63 housing on a 3.8 liter and spin it to the moon, where it wasnt intended. That move is for amateurs. ..There is better options out there. 62 will do everything better.

You don't look at compressor map for a specific application?

 

[bison]

Feel like your taking a stab at me..lol..

Ur right i would never put a 59mm with .63 housing on a 3.8 liter and spin it to the moon, where it wasnt intended. That move is for amateurs. ..There is better options out there. 62 will do everything better.

You don't look at compressor map for a specific application?

I'll put a 60-1 with a Garrett .63 and still run quicker than you ever have.


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[TTA976]

I'll put a 60-1 with a Garrett .63 and still run quicker than you ever have.


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[TTA976]

Good for you. Let me guess, you're going to put a tall turbine on it, run it pig rich by dump a whole bunch of meth to cover up the mistake of running too small of a compressor, boost dropping off because it can't produce the volume needed...way out of it's efficiency range...
Just to say your faster than me.

 

[Mr.Spool]

Feel like your taking a stab at me..lol..

I have quoted you a few times with what I feel is appropriate.no dig at all

 

[Mr.Spool]

You don't look at compressor map for a specific application

I have found in real world testing the compressor map can be misleading for a given goal.

 

[Mr.Spool]

There is better options out there. 62 will do everything better

Sure about that?my stock motored 49 car back in the day on the street shoot past just about everything leaving just off idle,car on the roll was awesome torque right on tap no lag perfect dig combo,when at the track could go 1.5 right of the brake with the boost needle just off vacuum back half 25mph and run 10 sec passes.I switched to a 62 cast and gained nothing both 63 and 85 ex housings.I run billet wheels on my rpe motor now and shoot for comp wheels that I can move 80/90+lbs a minute.on stock stuff 49 is stuff to beat regardless of what on paper should be on the car.driving them, racing them,playing with them ,to everything getting out of them leads down different paths

 

[seedling]

Good for you. Let me guess, you're going to put a tall turbine on it, run it pig rich by dump a whole bunch of meth to cover up the mistake of running too small of a compressor, boost dropping off because it can't produce the volume needed...way out of it's efficiency range...
Just to say your faster than me.

Hey Man,

I mean no offense, however, I can't help but ask if you know who it is that you are arguing with here?

In that, you do realize that you've managed to step off into a "tinkling contest" with some of the boards most knowledgeable and or respected members now, don't you?

And you do know that these guys know their game, your game, my game and everybody else's game as well, right?

And I'm sure that you are well aware that they've been knowing and or doing this Schtick for years upon years at that, correct?

I mean, arguing "Rocket Science" (with what are basically "Rocket Developers") is rarely a good idea for an enthusiast of any sort. And even if I had my doctorate in "Turbo Engineering", then, I can assure you that I would still use caution (in even the most casual of conversations) with the folks who apply the technology day in and or day out and most especially those who earn their living doing so.




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[seedling]

Good for you. Let me guess, you're going to put a tall turbine on it, run it pig rich by dump a whole bunch of meth to cover up the mistake of running too small of a compressor, boost dropping off because it can't produce the volume needed...way out of it's efficiency range...
Just to say your faster than me.

Again no offense, but, what real world data / results do you have that you can share? In that, these guys are espousing scenarios, furnishing factual data (from personal experience I might add). And that Trumps any would be computer imagined data map, any day, at least in my mind anyways. As I would much rather win at the track, than I would win an argument on the bench, any day.

All I'm saying is that you are arguing with the best in the business, (some of whom make it their business to know the practical application of the entire discussion at hand). And while I'm not suggesting that you should bow at their feet. However, these guys have earned a certain amount of respect. As they've earned their stripes and I'd gladly put money behind what they say all day long. But, that's just my opinion and you know what they say about those too, right?



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[Jerryl]

. . . And even if I had my doctorate in "Turbo Engineering", then, I can assure you that I would still use caution (in even the most casual of conversations) with the folks who apply the technology day in and or day out and most especially those who earn their living doing so.
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So . . . If I was anal retentive with an Engineering degree, I would understand there is a paper limit, and know when to shut up to try and learn how to interpret Bisonese.