TE60......when is it out of breath?

275/50/15 didn't need to notch frame. Rims are 10" should have bought 8.

IMO - the te60 is a great turbo I've enjoyed it so much I bought the "new technology" 60 from Brian...billet 5957 with Garrett housing. So much fun on the street and pulls hard in 3rd.
 
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The cam is likely hurting the engines power with the drive pressures you had. Remember the initial hit with the wastegate swing valve disconnected it was within 30hp of the highest we got all day unlocked but at 5500rpm. Once we got the turbo all in down low it lost power at high rpm and picked up power down low. Which is why the converter is so important in these cars as the turbo starts to get worked. The harder the turbo is worked the tighter the converter And taller the gearing typically. I'd suspect exhaust pressure on the last hit was over 65psi and probably closer to 70psi at 5200+. All that exhaust pressure dlllutes the intake charge and it takes several degrees of crankshaft rotation for positive filling of the cylinder to start on each intake stroke. Same effect as egr and reducing the camshafts useful duration exactly when you don't need it. There are also pumping losses encountered pushing against that high drive pressure. This is why peak power shouldn't be of the most concern. You could put an MFS 6262 on there and probably only pick up 40whp peak but it bet my junk it would pick up over 100whp at 5700rpm!


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Hopefully this is still on topic for the OP to understand turbo capability. I can start another thread if not.

Looking at the system as a whole, the turbo is going to be linked from intake to exhaust, especially considering the fact that the turbine and the compressor spin at the same speed- i.e. connected by the same shaft.
On a turbo engine, once you hit the max flow capability of either side, performance will drop- same as hitting limits of other components. The compressor and the turbine have to work adequately, if not ideally, at the same speed, and also must work in conjunction with the engine flow capability for that speed.

Taking my engine for example, factory short block, comp 206 roller, decent ported factory heads, dut neck stock intercooler, stock exhaust elbow, 2 ½” down pipe, convertor stall 2200@zero, 4500 flash, 9% slip @ 5200 rpm, 255/60-15 ET Streets - is there a better turbo than a TE-44?

I personally would sacrifice some spool for better top end, but I don’t know if there is a good step from a TE-44, but under a 6262? I would like to keep the factory elbow.

Would 1.6 to 1.7 sixties be achievable with 118-120 trap speeds with just a turbo change for my combo(tuned correctly as an assumption)? I am willing to buy if so. Time in my sig was run with a 1.64 sixty, temp was right around 60F, running at LVD.
 
The factory elbow is a restriction
The elbow is modified(hogged out the outlet and welded a 3" to 2 1/2" reducer), but it is only a restriction if it is more of a restriction than the T-31 turbine for my application. I am curious to see Bison's recommendation.
 
Hopefully this is still on topic for the OP to understand turbo capability. I can start another thread if not.

Looking at the system as a whole, the turbo is going to be linked from intake to exhaust, especially considering the fact that the turbine and the compressor spin at the same speed- i.e. connected by the same shaft.
On a turbo engine, once you hit the max flow capability of either side, performance will drop- same as hitting limits of other components. The compressor and the turbine have to work adequately, if not ideally, at the same speed, and also must work in conjunction with the engine flow capability for that speed.

Taking my engine for example, factory short block, comp 206 roller, decent ported factory heads, dut neck stock intercooler, stock exhaust elbow, 2 ½” down pipe, convertor stall 2200@zero, 4500 flash, 9% slip @ 5200 rpm, 255/60-15 ET Streets - is there a better turbo than a TE-44?

I personally would sacrifice some spool for better top end, but I don’t know if there is a good step from a TE-44, but under a 6262? I would like to keep the factory elbow.

Would 1.6 to 1.7 sixties be achievable with 118-120 trap speeds with just a turbo change for my combo(tuned correctly as an assumption)? I am willing to buy if so. Time in my sig was run with a 1.64 sixty, temp was right around 60F, running at LVD.
Which 44 do you have.. Garrett pte or??
 
Which 44 do you have.. Garrett pte or??
I bought it from Dave Husek a few years ago, it was a fresh Bison TE-44 with a garrett .63 housing that Dave had sitting on the shelf. The turbo performs very well, spools quick. Thanks for the reinforcement!
 
Not gonna pretend I know anything but wonder if a pte housing would move the power from low to top end like your looking for....
 
Not gonna pretend I know anything but wonder if a pte housing would move the power from low to top end like your looking for....
I don't know either, but if the T-31 wheel is more of a restriction, then I guess it would not.
 
I personally would sacrifice some spool for better top end, but I don’t know if there is a good step from a TE-44, but under a 6262? I would like to keep the factory elbow.

Do not use a 6262 with a stock elbow. I did several years back. You will see massive boost spikes. Save your money for a 3" dp if you go that route.
 
Do not use a 6262 with a stock elbow. I did several years back. You will see massive boost spikes. Save your money for a 3" dp if you go that route.
Thanks for the feed back, I'm looking to stay small. I am curious if there is something small, but a little better than the T-31 exhaust wheel. Mainly looking for something that can feed the engine a little better up to 5300 rpm with out changing anything else except the turbo. Also, don't want excessive spool time with my current converter, I would sacrifice some though. A little softer hit would make it easier to keep the wheels from spinning on the street.
 
Hopefully this is still on topic for the OP to understand turbo capability. I can start another thread if not.

Looking at the system as a whole, the turbo is going to be linked from intake to exhaust, especially considering the fact that the turbine and the compressor spin at the same speed- i.e. connected by the same shaft.
On a turbo engine, once you hit the max flow capability of either side, performance will drop- same as hitting limits of other components. The compressor and the turbine have to work adequately, if not ideally, at the same speed, and also must work in conjunction with the engine flow capability for that speed.

Taking my engine for example, factory short block, comp 206 roller, decent ported factory heads, dut neck stock intercooler, stock exhaust elbow, 2 ½” down pipe, convertor stall 2200@zero, 4500 flash, 9% slip @ 5200 rpm, 255/60-15 ET Streets - is there a better turbo than a TE-44?

I personally would sacrifice some spool for better top end, but I don’t know if there is a good step from a TE-44, but under a 6262? I would like to keep the factory elbow.

Would 1.6 to 1.7 sixties be achievable with 118-120 trap speeds with just a turbo change for my combo(tuned correctly as an assumption)? I am willing to buy if so. Time in my sig was run with a 1.64 sixty, temp was right around 60F, running at LVD.

If you want to get the max flow out of a turbo you can't have any restriction. I'd bet your Intercooler is 4-5psi of pressure drop at 5200. This will result in added exhaust pressure that can be reduced by removing the restriction. To get peak power with the engines mechanics you will have to dig even further and look at the cam timing. Additionally converter slip will need to be less than 9%. Any added overlap over stock is going to hurt power if exhaust pressures are very high and you are out of turbo


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Do not use a 6262 with a stock elbow. I did several years back. You will see massive boost spikes. Save your money for a 3" dp if you go that route.

That just means you weren't using the turbo close to its potential. If you increase the pressure drop post turbo then you will actually aggravate a boost spike


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Hopefully this is still on topic for the OP to understand turbo capability. I can start another thread if not.

Looking at the system as a whole, the turbo is going to be linked from intake to exhaust, especially considering the fact that the turbine and the compressor spin at the same speed- i.e. connected by the same shaft.
On a turbo engine, once you hit the max flow capability of either side, performance will drop- same as hitting limits of other components. The compressor and the turbine have to work adequately, if not ideally, at the same speed, and also must work in conjunction with the engine flow capability for that speed.

Taking my engine for example, factory short block, comp 206 roller, decent ported factory heads, dut neck stock intercooler, stock exhaust elbow, 2 ½” down pipe, convertor stall 2200@zero, 4500 flash, 9% slip @ 5200 rpm, 255/60-15 ET Streets - is there a better turbo than a TE-44?

I personally would sacrifice some spool for better top end, but I don’t know if there is a good step from a TE-44, but under a 6262? I would like to keep the factory elbow.

Would 1.6 to 1.7 sixties be achievable with 118-120 trap speeds with just a turbo change for my combo(tuned correctly as an assumption)? I am willing to buy if so. Time in my sig was run with a 1.64 sixty, temp was right around 60F, running at LVD.
Your car with the 44 should run 118-120mph when you have it dialed all the way in.i sure wouldn't be looking for a slower spool with the 60ft so soft.a 44 should be running 1.5 60fts.these cars with stock motors must have strong 60fts and 330s to et it's the torque that made them great not the horsepower.in your case with 114mph your 44 isn't close to done.i went 125mph on the stock cam ported heads and a 49.my friend with ported Irons/and a mild cam stock motor and a 44 went 10.7 125mph.1.4 60fts on both cars with super aggressive tunes suspension work and taller tires.
 
If you want to get the max flow out of a turbo you can't have any restriction. I'd bet your Intercooler is 4-5psi of pressure drop at 5200. This will result in added exhaust pressure that can be reduced by removing the restriction. To get peak power with the engines mechanics you will have to dig even further and look at the cam timing. Additionally converter slip will need to be less than 9%. Any added overlap over stock is going to hurt power if exhaust pressures are very high and you are out of turbo


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Any data regarding an open vs closed dump?
 
If you want to get the max flow out of a turbo you can't have any restriction. I'd bet your Intercooler is 4-5psi of pressure drop at 5200. This will result in added exhaust pressure that can be reduced by removing the restriction. To get peak power with the engines mechanics you will have to dig even further and look at the cam timing. Additionally converter slip will need to be less than 9%. Any added overlap over stock is going to hurt power if exhaust pressures are very high and you are out of turbo


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I follow what your saying and know you can wring out every last bit of a combo. My question, in the context of the weaknesses you point out in my combination, is trying to understand what other small turbo options there may be and how well it may or may not work over the 44.
Looking at your graph, the 49 really starts dropping over 5000rpm (not sure how much is turbo and how much may be cam/heads). Is the TE-60 going to fall off like the 44 due to the exhaust wheel? Will a small billet turbo like a 5858(or a similar combination that you can put together) be able to continue to make power better than the 44 past 5000 rpm while still spool OK, or will it drop off like the 44/49 at 5000rpm?
I am not trying to run any quicker that an 11.5 at this point(maybe down the road), but would like to be able to find a turbo that would work with my current combo and keep making power past 5000 rpm. If possible I would like to improve trap speed and do it with a turbo making it a little easier to launch consistently and dial in right at 11.5. I don't have flow numbers for my heads, but I think the heads and cam would continue to make power past 5000 rpm.
I definitely don't want to buy something if it won't do any good, but would buy a turbo from you if you think it can do what I'm asking. I would also be willing to go to a precision stock location intercooler if it is a better bang for the buck and would make my current combo work better above 5000 rpm.
I definitely understand and agree with your recommendations on the converter as with the rest of the combination, and down the road I may end up going through the whole drive train(along with the required safety stuff) to build something more stout and quicker and I know you are the goto guy for that kind of stuff, for right now I like to play around and figure how stuff works.
 
I follow what your saying and know you can wring out every last bit of a combo. My question, in the context of the weaknesses you point out in my combination, is trying to understand what other small turbo options there may be and how well it may or may not work over the 44.
Looking at your graph, the 49 really starts dropping over 5000rpm (not sure how much is turbo and how much may be cam/heads). Is the TE-60 going to fall off like the 44 due to the exhaust wheel? Will a small billet turbo like a 5858(or a similar combination that you can put together) be able to continue to make power better than the 44 past 5000 rpm while still spool OK, or will it drop off like the 44/49 at 5000rpm?
I am not trying to run any quicker that an 11.5 at this point(maybe down the road), but would like to be able to find a turbo that would work with my current combo and keep making power past 5000 rpm. If possible I would like to improve trap speed and do it with a turbo making it a little easier to launch consistently and dial in right at 11.5. I don't have flow numbers for my heads, but I think the heads and cam would continue to make power past 5000 rpm.
I definitely don't want to buy something if it won't do any good, but would buy a turbo from you if you think it can do what I'm asking. I would also be willing to go to a precision stock location intercooler if it is a better bang for the buck and would make my current combo work better above 5000 rpm.
I definitely understand and agree with your recommendations on the converter as with the rest of the combination, and down the road I may end up going through the whole drive train(along with the required safety stuff) to build something more stout and quicker and I know you are the goto guy for that kind of stuff, for right now I like to play around and figure how stuff works.

I would go up in turbine. There's not much to be gained going larger on the compressor. Maybe a couple pounds a minute of airflow. If you want to make power above 5000 then more turbine is needed. But then you will need to really have the converter spot on if you want the car to e.t.


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Also with the small exhaust wheels you will need the garrett .63 to get the quickest spooling with minimum converter. A 62 turbine will need about 800rpm more to spool vs the old t31 turbine with the same housing.


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Nigel, what size rear tire are you running? Your mph seems low.
 
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