Mass Air VS Speed Density

turbojoe1

Active Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Witch do you run, and why?

Both?

Closed loop vs open loop on the street/track
Comments......

Thanks Joe
 
Turbo Tweak Speed Density, the reason? 20 adjustable parameters, no more MAF sensor.... it's really just a personal preference, they both work good.

Chuck
 
84BuickGNYorkPA said:
Turbo Tweak Speed Density, the reason? 20 adjustable parameters, no more MAF sensor.... it's really just a personal preference, they both work good.

Chuck

I may be wrong but doesn't speed density require more in depth tuning?

Cost wise, how does it pan out?

Thanks Joe
 
I love Speed Density. With Powerlogger I had a clean tune after looking thru a few logs. It does require tuning knowledge but that's neeeded with any setup. No MAF sensor is a plus. I don't miss it.
 
Or get the TurboTweak 6.1 chip + wideband + powerlogger that uses a MAF for around town cruising and then locks onto a target A/F for WOT track use.
 
blackgn1 said:
I love Speed Density. With Powerlogger I had a clean tune after looking thru a few logs. It does require tuning knowledge but that's neeeded with any setup. No MAF sensor is a plus. I don't miss it.

What did you not like about maf?
What's the benefit of S.D. over maf?

Thanks Joe
 
TurboTnZ06 said:
Or get the TurboTweak 6.1 chip + wideband + powerlogger that uses a MAF for around town cruising and then locks onto a target A/F for WOT track use.

??? You mean like having the best of both worlds? Huh?

Thanks Joe
 
I race occasionally, maybe 2 Buick events a year and go to the track once every couple months to have some fun. The rest of the time its street duty (I don't park it out of sight though). In powerlogger there's only 8 cells to mess with to tune the 6.1 chip for WOT tracking. I was able to use it to target mid boost A/F too to handle my maf maxing out at 255 gps causing a part throttle breaking up condition on the street when I didn't want to go WOT but needed to get some power down to the pavement.
 
Chuck's right. It is close right out of the box. I have over the years removed parts that I personally didn't want. EGR, MAF Sensor, Charcoal Canister, Cruise Control, ect, ect. The less I have to work around the better. I have used a stock MAF sensor. Also the translator and LT1 sensor. Speed density gives me alot more parameters to adjust. Every parameter I get in check the more power I make. The next step from Speed Density is FAST XFI. Maybe one day I will step up. Most important to me is my car runs way better on Speed Density on the street than it did with the translator and LT1 sensor.
 
Turbojoe1...TT SD chip is not for you. A TT 6.1 is a much better choice if you understand wideband readings. A simple TT 5.7 will work fine.
 
Lots of real good input here guys.
It seems I could use all the newest tech out there and get more out of my car with SD. I've been eye balling that TT6.1 w/wb, alky, and a good data logger. Lots to learn still, but that's part of the fun

Thanks Joe
 
I've been running the MaftPro in SD for over 5 years on the street only and it runs great no complaints. No i don't miss the maf sensor at all. Even though when i was running a translater and LT1 maf sensor the car ran pretty good but i prefer mafless.
 
black sheep of the family here.. We have a MAF on all our junk.. why ?? I am lazy.. Plus to many people jump into our cars (DRIVERS) to "go to the store" :p Plenty of adjust ability in it to boot.
 
There are a number of different ways to go here. MAF of course will be the best way for the everyday user that would rather leave most of the measuring and tweaking done by the car and onboard computer and it's inherent limitations (8 bit). The flow limit of the stock computer can be fooled into thinking it's much bigger by adding an Extender chip and allow for a higher mass air flow measurement. It's fooling the ECM but works extremely well and is easy to tune. This is the standard chip/ecm configuration in which the ECM has full control over everything (except some fueling/timing adjustments allowed by chip features).

One can delve into Speed Density (SD) in a number of ways and this allows for a much wider range of user control over the system. Basically there are 3 ways to accomplish this and they vary in complexity.
The first two I'll refer to as pseudo SD methods since the stock ECM is still in the picture and must receive a MAF signal, although fake, generated by the user's equipmen. The 3rd, true SD.

The first method is through the use of a TT SD chip which contains a small internal VE like table and generates a MAF signal the ECM can understand from this (I'm speculating here because I don't run this setup). It allows the user to make adjustments to what appears to be a 2 x 4 table (8) to control fueling. Not sure how timing is handled here.

The second method is via the use of the Translator Pro, and Extender Pro (by Bailey Engineering) chip combination. This is a hardware/chip combination in which the hardware intercepts various inputs from the engine bay, including, but not limited to Wideband, RPM, Manifold Temp, Manifold pressure. The hardware then uses these inputs, and a large 15 x 17 VE table, plus user tune tables to generate the pseudo MAF signal required by the ECM. The Pro can also handle two different WOT timing tables (based on aux intput, usually tranny gear), and two different boost control signals (based on aux intput, usually tranny gear) which can be closed loop or open loop. Complete Wideband O2 control that is not only WOT, but can be used to control cruise and idle closed loop control if one chooses. I personally let the stock narrowband control idle and cruise and have the Wideband take over WOT control. And a couple dozen other user controlled items.
This particular system is NOT for the faint of heart when it comes to tuning abilities!!

The third method is true SD, and is accomplished uing a completely separate stand alone ECM that replaces the stock ECM and chip combo. We know these by several different names such as FAST, XFI, BigStuff3, Megasquirt, and a number of others. These systems work with much the same theory, and use all the same inputs from the engine bay to control fuel/air/spark/boost, etc.
However, it must be said, that as compicated as the Translator Pro seems to many users, these systems are FAR FAR more complex. The reason being, they require the user to setup and control ALL dozens and dozens of overhead items that the ECM handles with the Translator Pro. Everything the ECM handled must now be taken car of and controlled by the user, so the same caveat applies here in spades!
These systems are NOT for the faint of heart when in comes to tuning abilties!!!!!!!

The user must then decide how much time and effort they want to dedicate to the well being of their state of tune before deciding on which route to take.

I personally decided to go with the Translator Pro since I've had some experience helping friends tune their FAST systems in the past. Although I wasn't particularly intimidated by these systems, I decided on my particular route because I knew I was about to retire the car from racing, but still wanted to be able to tune a complete VE table, and leave the ECM to take care of all the overhead duties. I've got the car running phenominally well, with better throttle response than it has ever had, and my CF% curve is significantly below 3% across and entire WOT blast.

Sorry for the rambling folks. Choose your poison, they all work great!!!!
 
Oh boy, I'm in over my head. I'm defiantly going to need some help buying the right stuff and tuning. This is slightly intimidating,

Anyone here close to north Ohio?
Looking to make some new friends, and wrenching buddy's

Thanks Joe
 
TurboDave said:
There are a number of different ways to go here. MAF of course will be the best way for the everyday user that would rather leave most of the measuring and tweaking done by the car and onboard computer and it's inherent limitations (8 bit). The flow limit of the stock computer can be fooled into thinking it's much bigger by adding an Extender chip and allow for a higher mass air flow measurement. It's fooling the ECM but works extremely well and is easy to tune. This is the standard chip/ecm configuration in which the ECM has full control over everything (except some fueling/timing adjustments allowed by chip features).

One can delve into Speed Density (SD) in a number of ways and this allows for a much wider range of user control over the system. Basically there are 3 ways to accomplish this and they vary in complexity.
The first two I'll refer to as pseudo SD methods since the stock ECM is still in the picture and must receive a MAF signal, although fake, generated by the user's equipmen. The 3rd, true SD.

The first method is through the use of a TT SD chip which contains a small internal VE like table and generates a MAF signal the ECM can understand from this (I'm speculating here because I don't run this setup). It allows the user to make adjustments to what appears to be a 2 x 4 table (8) to control fueling. Not sure how timing is handled here.

The second method is via the use of the Translator Pro, and Extender Pro (by Bailey Engineering) chip combination. This is a hardware/chip combination in which the hardware intercepts various inputs from the engine bay, including, but not limited to Wideband, RPM, Manifold Temp, Manifold pressure. The hardware then uses these inputs, and a large 15 x 17 VE table, plus user tune tables to generate the pseudo MAF signal required by the ECM. The Pro can also handle two different WOT timing tables (based on aux intput, usually tranny gear), and two different boost control signals (based on aux intput, usually tranny gear) which can be closed loop or open loop. Complete Wideband O2 control that is not only WOT, but can be used to control cruise and idle closed loop control if one chooses. I personally let the stock narrowband control idle and cruise and have the Wideband take over WOT control. And a couple dozen other user controlled items.
This particular system is NOT for the faint of heart when it comes to tuning abilities!!

The third method is true SD, and is accomplished uing a completely separate stand alone ECM that replaces the stock ECM and chip combo. We know these by several different names such as FAST, XFI, BigStuff3, Megasquirt, and a number of others. These systems work with much the same theory, and use all the same inputs from the engine bay to control fuel/air/spark/boost, etc.
However, it must be said, that as compicated as the Translator Pro seems to many users, these systems are FAR FAR more complex. The reason being, they require the user to setup and control ALL dozens and dozens of overhead items that the ECM handles with the Translator Pro. Everything the ECM handled must now be taken car of and controlled by the user, so the same caveat applies here in spades!
These systems are NOT for the faint of heart when in comes to tuning abilties!!!!!!!

The user must then decide how much time and effort they want to dedicate to the well being of their state of tune before deciding on which route to take.

I personally decided to go with the Translator Pro since I've had some experience helping friends tune their FAST systems in the past. Although I wasn't particularly intimidated by these systems, I decided on my particular route because I knew I was about to retire the car from racing, but still wanted to be able to tune a complete VE table, and leave the ECM to take care of all the overhead duties. I've got the car running phenominally well, with better throttle response than it has ever had, and my CF% curve is significantly below 3% across and entire WOT blast.

Sorry for the rambling folks. Choose your poison, they all work great!!!!

Is this ^^^^^^Stephen Hawking???? Geez I had to read that twice.

Thanks Joe
 
I run our EBL SFI-6 Flash SD ECM. I prefer SD as the ECM knows when the engine is in boost and by how much. It also allows the ECM to control other items via the boost level such as a second fuel pump or an alky injection system.

As for tuning the VE tables, some of this is built into the included What's Up Display. Makes it easy & quick to get up & running.

Now for the plug (you knew it was coming :) ): for anyone wanting to step up a bit from the stock ECM the EBL SFI-6 system is a good choice.

RemoveBeforeFlight
 
Oh boy, I'm in over my head. I'm defiantly going to need some help buying the right stuff and tuning. This is slightly intimidating,


Thanks Joe

After 5 years I still feel like that, and I'm sure I can't be the only one. Just keep reading and learning and it will get easier. Then start re-reading stuff ;)
 
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