Mass Air VS Speed Density

[hawkfan]

Yes to being a replacement ECM for the TB's. With a ton-load more capability.

The connections are not the same. The ECM harness connector pin out is different. You can add the third connector and re-pin the stock two connectors to three connectors and plug in the EBL SFI-6 ECM. A MAP sensor is also required (no MAF support at this time). Note that we carry the required third connector and if you go this way will supply the re-pin guide.

OTOH, we are going to make up a small batch of adapter harnesses. This will allow the user to plug the stock harness connectors into the adapter, then plug the adapter connectors into the SFI-6 ECM. It shouldn't be long before they are available.

RemoveBeforeFlight

^^^ I'm pretty sure a plug n play harness would make these fly off the shelf. So, does this require a 3 bar map for speed density or can it use the signal from the stock map? What about air temp compensation? Can it use wideband o2 signal to adjust fuel?

 

[turbobob924]

Very cool


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[turbojoe1]

New tech, is cool tech

Thanks Joe

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

^^^ I'm pretty sure a plug n play harness would make these fly off the shelf. So, does this require a 3 bar map for speed density or can it use the signal from the stock map? What about air temp compensation? Can it use wideband o2 signal to adjust fuel?

The EBL SFI-6 can use a 1-bar, 2-bar, or 3-bar MAP sensor. There are option flags in the calibration to let the ECM know which sensor is installed. At the same time, the MAP sensor should be matched to the boost level. A 2-bar will report up to 15 psi of boost. With a 3-bar reporting up to 30 psi of boost.

If you are running say, 17 - 18 psi of boost, you can use a 2-bar MAP. There just won't be any additional SA or fueling corrections once past 15 psi. Which can & does work.

The stock 2-bar MAP can be used. Just need to wire it to the ECM instead of the dash.

A WB O2 set up can also be used, however, not for WB tracking. We don't believe in it as it can cost you an engine quicker then anything. Well, except maybe heavy detonation...

The EBL SFI-6 system will data log and display WB AFR values, along with being able to use it for VE learn when not in boost.

RemoveBeforeFlight

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

Missed the air temperature compensation question, yes, for both fueling and spark advance.

RemoveBeforeFlight

 

[norbs]

Are you sure a WB02 at wot under boost is a bad thing???????

 

[turbojoe1]

This sounds killer

Thanks Joe

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

Are you sure a WB02 at wot under boost is a bad thing???????

Not when a human is looking at the data once the WOT blast is done. In that case a WB set up is a good thing.

As I stated, WB tracking can cost you an engine so fast that it shouldn't be used. I'm sure that statement will raise a few hackles. But ask the folks that lost engines due to it whether it was worth it or not.

Tune the engine/ECM and then there is no need to have another system adjusting the AFR on the fly.

RemoveBeforeFlight

 

[turbojoe1]

Hmmm

Thanks Joe

 

[norbs]

Not when a human is looking at the data once the WOT blast is done. In that case a WB set up is a good thing.

As I stated, WB tracking can cost you an engine so fast that it shouldn't be used. I'm sure that statement will raise a few hackles. But ask the folks that lost engines due to it whether it was worth it or not.

Tune the engine/ECM and then there is no need to have another system adjusting the AFR on the fly.

RemoveBeforeFlight

I understand what you getting at, but with restricted - negative correction it can still be very valuable to have a WB 02 adding fuel ....

 

[TurboDave]

Not when a human is looking at the data once the WOT blast is done. In that case a WB set up is a good thing.

As I stated, WB tracking can cost you an engine so fast that it shouldn't be used. I'm sure that statement will raise a few hackles. But ask the folks that lost engines due to it whether it was worth it or not.

Tune the engine/ECM and then there is no need to have another system adjusting the AFR on the fly.

RemoveBeforeFlight

This all assumes that your initial tuning run is going to be at least close. What if it isn't? You can't know until after the run. I'd feel more comfortable seeing that the WB was at least trying to correct a miss tune issue with a heavy correction factor, rather than making the run with nothing to correct it until after the fact.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

This all assumes that your initial tuning run is going to be at least close. What if it isn't? You can't know until after the run. I'd feel more comfortable seeing that the WB was trying to correct a mis tune issue with a heavy correction factor, rather than making the run with nothing to correct it until after the fact.

X2^^^^

 

[HighPSI]

I have customers that are always playing with their alky control knob. When they turn it up, the WBO2 removes some of the excessive fuel. When they turn it down, or it's not primed, the WBO2 correction has saved them. Also seen where they've blown the vacuum line off the fuel regulator or to the Hobbs switch of a double pumper....

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

This all assumes that your initial tuning run is going to be at least close. What if it isn't? You can't know until after the run. I'd feel more comfortable seeing that the WB was at least trying to correct a miss tune issue with a heavy correction factor, rather than making the run with nothing to correct it until after the fact.

That is not the correct way to tune. Need to sneak up on the boost, check things along the way, read the plugs, check the data. Make sure that the fuel pressure is rising the proper amount. Then up the boost a bit and continue on.

The first thing I did when I tuned the '87 was to disconnect the waste gate rod. That limited boost to a max of 5 psi. Then just drove around using the auto VE Learn to get the drive-ability areas in line. Then moved into the boost areas and higher RPM and tweaked/checked/tuned those areas.

At this point I discovered fuel delivery issues, two of them. First was that the primary pump was weak, and second, not enough return line capacity. So the engine was leaning out just as it was entering boost, then went very rich once the secondary pump turned on.

Further testing showed that the secondary pump is good and strong, so pulled the fuse for the primary pump and run exclusively on the secondary pump. Fuel pressure is solid, further tuning can be be accomplished.

Then reconnected the WG rod and ran the boost reference line directly between the port on the turbo and the WG port. This limited boost to 18 psi. But, I also used the right foot to further limit boost, no slam the pedal and pray tuning here.

At this point continued up the boost & RPM ladder, checking, tuning along the way. I think I've been through 6 sets of plugs in the past year or so. This is due to various reasons, one being the PCV oiling down a couple of sets. Once that was fixed a fresh set of plugs was installed. Can't read them after they get covered in oil.

And using plain Autolite copper core plugs the cost is reasonable.

Once the boost/RPM tuning was good to 18 psi, the RJC boost valve went back on. Now at 24 psi and the tune is good. And the car is fun and I don't worry about it.

Now that the fueling is in line with reasonable SA, some testing/tuning of the SA can be done. Of course this is where it is easy to get greedy, as adding SA makes the car a whole lot more fun. But a bit too much and the head gaskets are no longer under the heads...

RemoveBeforeFlight

 

[TurboDave]

You make an entirely incorrect assumption. I guess you assume that those of us in this thread that use WB correction just hook things up, go out and make a full boost full throttle blast and hope for the best. Sorry, but it's not true. I've been tuning turbo buicks for 25 years now, and believe it or not, I have a good idea on how to accomplish it. My tuning regimine is pretty close to what you describe. My tune, like several others here in the thread is now spot on. My logged correction factor is less than 1% across the board, so do I need WB correction? No, assuming everything stays healthy, but I have it turned on in case something starts going bad. WB correction is just another tool in the box. I have the comfort of mind knowing that at least the system will try to correct it enough that things don't go up in a ball of fire.

I know of no other systems out there that don't have WB correction so the user has the option of using it or not. You'll excuse me for saying so, and please take no offense, but your tuning mindset sounds a lot like the way things were in the 20th century. Heck, even NASCAR had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century and is just now using fuel injection.

You've got to be able to compete in the modern day market, and having the only system on the market that does not support WB correction (because of an antiquated tuning mindset) isn't going to get your product to a very broad market.

Anyway, I guess there's the possibility that my background and that of a great number of others on this board could be totally wrong. I doubt it though. I've never hurt a motor in all these years, and only ate one headgasket (the result of a stupid parking lot burnout, showing off, and not even a race related). Tranny's, yes, motors, no.

I should shut up now.

 

[norbs]

Wb's are not fool proof, strange things can happen, but As Turbodave said, just put the option in the software and let the user decide if they want to use the feature or not. Have the user determine how much fuel is allowed to be pulled or added, and put in safe default values for those who don;t want to mess settings too much. This way everyone is happy.

 

[northerngn]

XFI
Speed density.
I like the adjustability and accuracy.

 

[turbojoe1]

$$$^^^

Thanks Joe

 

[hawkfan]

This is not a knock on the proven Fast XFI, but this looks like a much cheaper alternative with most of the same features. No WB tracking option is a bit of a let down, but it's still a feature rich system at a good price. Megasquirt is another option, but a built, plug n play ecm is much more appealing IMHO.

 

[HighPSI]

If you're on a budget and want speed density and wide band tracking, why not grab a Classic Fast or BS3. I've seen them between $250-$1000 including the WBO2 and adaptor harness