Meth Failsafe...need opinions..

[Wazvette]

Ok guys...I am trying to come up with a decent failsafe for my Razor kit...I found a very promising device from Labonte..

IFS-20 - Alcohol Injection Fail Safe

it can cut boost to the wastgate pressure if the methanol pressure in the lines drops down for any reason through this..

BBK-20 - Turbo Boost Bypass Kit

The nice thing about it is that it works with internal wastgate too!

Is there any reason why I should not consider this? or if there is anything missing here?

This looks very promising to me...I need more opinions guys...Help me out

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

What would the IFS-20 deactivate?
Ignition?
Boost controller?

 

[Wazvette]

It can deactivate both if you want...it can cut boost through bbk20.

it could send a 12v signal to the ecu to trigger ignition retard...the only thing about this part is that I dont know how to wire it for the Buick's ecu. So...I am satisfied with boost cut using the bbk20 when added to the system.


Oh...anyone know how to retard ignition using the 12v signal to the ecu?

 

[TWISTEDV6]

Good idea

This looks like a good idea, but i see 1 issue with it personnaly. If you read the full item description, you will see this statement:

"The output trigger can be connected to an aftermarket timing retard module, or a solenoid to bypass a boost control device. This results in reduced timing or limiting boost to wastegate pressure in the event fluid flow STOPS."

I don't know how you run your Alky/Methanol kit, but mine does not kick in until 7-8lbs of boost. So, with that being said, will this setup "PREVENT" me from making boost because it will be bypassing the wastegate for no Alky flow?

Other than that, it looks pretty cool.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

Which would respond faster and be safer?
1- Reducing timing?
2- Instant of off the module and coil?
3- Reducing boost?

Not sure but I think #2 would respond the fastest. Plus I never heard of any one loosing an engine because of a not spark condition.

The next question, Working it with a progressive alky system.
I guess you can wire the safety device to be activated by the Alky circuit it self. So when the Alky reaches a certain voltage output it can also trigger the safety device. While in low boost the signal will not have enough voltage to trigger the safety device but once the Alky goes into full flow (full voltage) the device will activate.

I guess the above works only if the common parts that fail on an Alky system are on the mechanical side i.e.: Pump, filter and lines.

 

[Wazvette]

You are saying because you start spraying at 7lbs the device will think your pump has failed earlier in the rpm?

well if thats your concern...from the features..

"Features:
• JIC 1/4" AN fittings for Braided Hose
• Compatible with 100% Methanol
• Real Time 0-5volt Flow output signal
• User Adjustable Flow Trigger Point
• 1 Year Warranty"

it says user adjustable flow trigger point in number 4...AND earlier in the ad it says you can adjust to a certain DEGREE of flow...so if it flows less at a certain point it will trigger the failsafe and decrease boost (in my case).....or timing (if I have it figured at the time). but lowering boost is a good failsafe method for me.

This looks like a good idea, but i see 1 issue with it personnaly. If you read the full item description, you will see this statement:

"The output trigger can be connected to an aftermarket timing retard module, or a solenoid to bypass a boost control device. This results in reduced timing or limiting boost to wastegate pressure in the event fluid flow STOPS."

I don't know how you run your Alky/Methanol kit, but mine does not kick in until 7-8lbs of boost. So, with that being said, will this setup "PREVENT" me from making boost because it will be bypassing the wastegate for no Alky flow?

Other than that, it looks pretty cool.

 

[Wazvette]

Ok...I hope I understand you correctly ..if not please don't be offended and consider me ignorant.

I know no one loses an engine because they don't have spark...this is not the merit of this...this device does not save you from low or high spark.

its either that....or your saying that we should cut spark from the coils and that would be safer...If thats what your saying...then you want the car completely dead while you are trying to over boost (ie use methanol when its not there)...I am not sure if thats safe because the car will be dead while your driving (wouldn it?!)

When you spray methanol you normally add more timing and/or more boost to make power (and play with AFRs but lets leave that aside now). All what this device promising is to lower boost to the lowest possible level set by the wastgate in the case you have LESS or NO methanol flow in the lines. And again that is something you can set up as a user.

Here is a simple scenario...if you had your boost set up for pump gas ONLY at 18lbs. And the lowest you can go with boost in your car is 16lbs (set by wastgate). Then...you decide to buy a kit and spray methanol AND add boost up to 24lbs plus timing. If the methanol stops or decreases in the lines for ANY reason you automatically lose an engine because you are operating way out of your safe PUMP gas zone.

Ok...what this devise does is when it senses any problems with methanol flow it decreases the boost to the wastgate level (16 lbs !) ignoring or bypassing the boost controller. Meaning when you have a problem with methanol spraying, the device will cut boost to a very safe level saving your engine. Versus you having an engine operating beyond the pump gas threshold.

If this is not the SAFEST...I am sure it is safER than having no failsafe at all guys...do you catch my flow?



Do i make sense?

Which would respond faster and be safer?
1- Reducing timing?
2- Instant of off the module and coil?
3- Reducing boost?

Not sure but I think #2 would respond the fastest. Plus I never heard of any one loosing an engine because of a not spark condition.

The next question, Working it with a progressive alky system.
I guess you can wire the safety device to be activated by the Alky circuit it self. So when the Alky reaches a certain voltage output it can also trigger the safety device. While in low boost the signal will not have enough voltage to trigger the safety device but once the Alky goes into full flow (full voltage) the device will activate.

I guess the above works only if the common parts that fail on an Alky system are on the mechanical side i.e.: Pump, filter and lines.

 

[Wazvette]

Another thing that is worth noting...when the device decreases the boost level its also a warning sign not to get on the gas again...you see a sudden boost drop then you automatically know that your methanol kit is failing somehow.

 

[Razor]

You can hurt an engine cutting spark. If you look at the design of any piston the least amount of material is the area under the wrist pin. If you dont have spark, the crank has to "yank" the piston downward. This yanking the piston can break the lower portion of the piston, which then slings the rod, breaking the side of the block.

The issue with theBuick specifically is boost control. 90+% of the TR's use an integral gate with the factory bleeder, T-handle bleeder, HD actuators, etc. Meaning that safe minimum boost doesnt exist. In a perfect world with external gates, aftermarket boost controllers(with selectable inputs), then capacity can exist.

Becuase the flow switch says liquid is moving through it doesnt mean the liquid is entering the engine. It also doesnt mean the correct amount is flowing into an engine. At 10 PSI x=flow. At 20 PSI its 2x/3x the amount. So if you only have x flowing at 20 PSI then the flow switch will indicate flow and not reduce boost. Or vice versa, you have a loose hose and leak.. the flow switch will say liquid is flowing.. and still no reduction. Under conditions of no flow.. then yes.

So looking at a device, it needs to be mapped boost/rpm/flow/pressure. If it falls out of those parameters.. then trigger the alarm. Then the alarm shuts down the external wastegate to minimum boost which should be 1/3 of whats being run. The cost of doing all of this is prohibitive. Let alone cost of time, wiring, complexity, is beyond what the user average can do. Still requires some monitoring.. so its back to paying attention.

The word failsafe is an oxymoron. There is no failsafe racing an engine except for having a hightened sense of awareness of what the engine is telling you. If it noses down, picks up knock, sounds weird, etc. Nobody can make a failsafe that will allow the person to constantly beat on an engine without any reguard. If so.. it would be on all the top racing teams.

The pressure switch system employed with the kits is simple and effective. Keep it in a visible spot.. just like you do a scanmaster/knock gauge.. You need to keep an eye on the LED changing colors.. it will tell you if the pump develops pressure. Any degredation in which it changes colors.. there is an issue and time for inspection.

If you dont want to monitor anything and lay the hammer down to 30 PSI.. good luck.. alky or not. Becuase fuel pumps.. cough Walbro cough.. , fuel pressure regulators, injectors harnesses, ecm, hot wire relays, etc.. all part of the fuel system.. can fail.. and when they do.. the alky was perfect and you just ate a head gasket cuase your eye was only on one part of the picture ASSUMMING things are where they're suppossed to be.

You want a fail safe.. do it on wideband and set an alarm to trigger on a lean condition to shut the waste gate down. There are tons of companies that sell these devices. The one on my car is by FAST.. the dash logger..

FAST XFI DASH DATA LOGGER

Made by Powertrain Control Solutions

http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/

It ties into my FAST and I set up my alarm outputs based on airfuel to trigger a warning light and shut down my boost controller. My FAST senses a lean condition.. it will open up the injectors 25% solving the lean issue.

No it aint cheap.. but many ways to accomplish a goal.

The Labonte piece is nice. It offers an affordable flow device. Just dont concentrate on one issue. In the last 5 years, I've seen more engine get hurt from bad fuel systems than from a bad alky system.. irreguardless of mfg.

Use your test button.. pay attention to your monitor lights.. if you do.. you wont have an alky problem.. and employ $$$ to other mods..cough XFI cough..

 

[Razor]

Wanted to add.. you dont need an XFI to use the dash logger. But you do need a wideband sensor :redface:

 

[Wazvette]

Razor...I get your point...I am not saying that I did not want to monitor anything...I was thinking the dramatic decrease in boost will be a more prominent sign for me to get off the gas pedal the next time...the light on the kit is a great monitoring device and all...but I wanted to add one more thing for peace of mind. I know there is no such thing as completely safe....but I wanted it to be safer that's all....so you think this device wont add anything to safety at all? Again...given that I am monitoring the light.

 

[Razor]

You can never have too many built in safety's. The pro is it gives you peace of mind. The con is it costs $$ and needs supporting hardware.

If you have the dough and want to experiment.. go for it. Just make sure it can handle 300 PSI pressure in case of a blockage. I didnt see pressure rating... You should probably do your WG first.. and once you can get that working on a switch, then get the electronics to make it happen.

 

[salvageV6]

After looking at the device from the link, with a stock type wastegate solenoid or two that some use, you could easily control boost to the spring pressure with the devices output for no flow, dead pump, blocked nozzle, low flow, as well as a simple one chip voltage comparator circuit to watch for hose breaks and leaks which would indicate an overflow situation. That would be indicated by a severly high abnormal voltage output of the device for max. flow indicated with an open hose. Easily tested by taking the hose off the nozzle(s) and checking the voltage output.

All you would need is a standard automotive relay inline with the wastegate solenoid power feed to perform that function using the devices output as well as the voltage comparator.

You wouldn't need the supporting solenoid at all for a stock type wastegate system.

Very simple product it appears, and easy to use. :smile:

Wazvette there's no reason NOT to consider using it as it can do a lot according to the literature.

I would simply lower the boost with it, however there was a timing control device (timing translator) from full throttle that would change timing on the fly back to a safe level that went in line with a stock chip or translator (without built in timing control) that could be used to modify the timing from an external signal.

There's really nothing but simple electronics at play here.

No rocket science or big $$ needed.

If you have the dough for a big $$$ "kit" you probably should and could afford this new failsafe device.

Very reasonably priced compared to trying to build one for the DIY'ers as well.

 

[Pablo]

You can hurt an engine cutting spark. If you look at the design of any piston the least amount of material is the area under the wrist pin. If you dont have spark, the crank has to "yank" the piston downward. This yanking the piston can break the lower portion of the piston, which then slings the rod, breaking the side of the block.

So, uh, what happens on the exhaust to intake stroke portion of the 4 strokes?

 

[Razor]

Misfires at high boost and high rpm's are bad news :wink:

 

[ktm240z]

There is no "absolute" fail-safe setup. Razor relies on a wideband O2 sensor. What if the O2 sensor starts to fail and its readings are incorrect?

I utilize a pressure sensor that sends a 0-5v signal to my EMS. My EMS ADDS timing, PULLS primary fuel, and INCREASES boost (through an electronic PWM controlled boost controller) as long as it detects pressure in the line. If the pressure drops below a user-defined value, I am at a fuel-only setup.

My setup relies on the pressure sensor working. I had a pressure sensor failure but it failed by showing 0 pressure at all times. It could have failed by showing line pressure all the time.

Also, my setup does not account for a solenoid/injector (I utilize the FJO Racing setup) failure. I could have line pressure but my solenoid/injector/injector driver could fail and not spray.

There is always an inherent risk when seeking horsepower.

 

[Razor]

There is always an inherent risk when seeking horsepower.

Agreed.. and if my wideband takes a dump.. or my computer takes a dump.. i'm in trouble :redface: cuase anything can/will happen. This is where the "hightened sense of awareness" plays a role.. and distractions cost you $$$.

 

[Alky V6]

So, uh, what happens on the exhaust to intake stroke portion of the 4 strokes?

I was thinking the same thing there Pablo.

Razor. I think it would be a natural progression for your kit if you had something like this built into your kit. In the heat of the moment, it's too easy to be distracted and forget about looking at lights and such. And even it you caught a warning light, is the chance there that the damage would be done before you could react to it anyway?

 

[87GN_70GS]

The ESC module tells the ignition module to retard timing when the knock sensor detects knock. It does this by bringing the signal from the ESC to the ign low (down to near ground). You would have to invert this active-high 12v signal (using a transistor, not relay, for speed), then diode-or it into this ESC wire.

 

[Razor]

I was thinking the same thing there Pablo.

Razor. I think it would be a natural progression for your kit if you had something like this built into your kit. In the heat of the moment, it's too easy to be distracted and forget about looking at lights and such. And even it you caught a warning light, is the chance there that the damage would be done before you could react to it anyway?

Pull a plug wire on your car next time your going to race it and make a pass at big boost. Tell me a story.

One thing is half the stroke..

Working on such a device