New benchmark for stock-type heads!

[Dusty Bradford]

I tend to agree with this and siting another example~ Roy/Laz ran 9.60's (actually probably closer to 9.50's considering they ran 6.0 @114mph in the 1/8 on the last outing with the old iron headed 109) in TSM trim with Champion CNC ported iron heads that only flowed 200CFM on the intake...

Hell, look at how fast Dusty has run with 23* heads on a SBC...

My SBC Brodix Track 1's flowed 317 so I'm impressed by 300 from these TA heads. My exhaust went 229 on the exhaust so IMO opinion these TA need to go more than this to take advantage of the intake flow. I ran out of time for testing but it seemed my heads or headers were to restrictive on the exhaust side and I couldn't get it out of the cylinder. It's been a while since I flowed a Buick head but seems the exhaust is pretty good so it may flow enough to really see some power from these stock type heads.

Blazer. I'm no map reader but I would think that because the turbo is moving the same amount of air at 16# with good heads as it was at 22# with decent heads you will not see any downsides.

 

[SloGN]

My SBC Brodix Track 1's flowed 317 so I'm impressed by 300 from these TA heads. My exhaust went 229 on the exhaust so IMO opinion these TA need to go more than this to take advantage of the intake flow. I ran out of time for testing but it seemed my heads or headers were to restrictive on the exhaust side and I couldn't get it out of the cylinder. It's been a while since I flowed a Buick head but seems the exhaust is pretty good so it may flow enough to really see some power from these stock type heads.

.

if one would look at the valve timing it would reviel that the exhaust valve is opened somewhat early in to the relation to the piston traveling down the bore on the firing stroke.

This is on the stock cam i have not look in the the aftermarket grinds. The reason buick did this was because the exahust valve and port has such poor flow that they need to open the valve before the piston starts back up the bore to help get rid of the exhaust pressure faster to help reduce the effects of the pumping losses by the piston having to compress the air again to get it out past the valve. so there is two trade offs that can happen that affect power output.


i would think it would be best to keep the exhaust valve closed as long as possiable to get all the work out of the cylinder charge. instead od wasting some of it by opening the exhaust vlave early.

 

[Nick Micale]

My SBC Brodix Track 1's flowed 317 so I'm impressed by 300 from these TA heads. My exhaust went 229 on the exhaust so IMO opinion these TA need to go more than this to take advantage of the intake flow. ..........

I do not claim to be an "expert" on head flow, but am associated with a few in the industry that are. What they state is that the intake/exhaust ratio should be 75-85%, and that is where these head are.

The TA heads have excellent exhaust ports and can flow high numbers if needed.

Since combination is very important for max power, valve timing is one of the important components. The cam choice must be decided when putting together the total combo.

Our shop has access to some of the pro racing teams and have utilized their knowledge and experience in building our custom race engines. This is one reason we were able to achieve the numbers we did.

Another benefit to the "regular" build we do is that a few of the items we did on these heads trickle down to our street builds as well.

 

[SloGN]

if one would look at the valve timing it would reviel that the exhaust valve is opened somewhat early in to the relation to the piston traveling down the bore on the firing stroke.

This is on the stock cam i have not look in the aftermarket grinds. The reason buick did this was because the exhaust valve and port has such poor flow that they need to open the valve before the piston starts back up the bore to help get rid of the exhaust pressure faster to help reduce the effects of the pumping losses by the piston having to compress the air again to get it out past the valve. so there is two trade offs that can happen that affect power output.


i would think it would be best to keep the exhaust valve closed as long as possable to get all the work out of the cylinder charge. instead of wasteing some of it by opening the exhaust valve early.

sorry about all the misspelled words it was very early in the morning

 

[Otto J]

SO go install a set of these TA heads and put the number down.
Im dying to see what they can do.

Who is currently the fastest running TA heads so far?

 

[VadersV6]

The import crowd has been making some serious power with 4 cylinders and turbos for over 10 years now, and the key is simply massive flow potential with the heads/intake and a matching turbo. What works on a 4 cylinder will work on any other engine. These engines are incredibly peaky though. No curve whatsoever under 6000rpm, but from 6-11,000 rpm...yes, 11,000 rpm, you have 800hp out of 1.8 liters. Doesnt mean that huge flowing heads are the reason for them being a dog at lower rpm. Its cause you're dealing with such small displacement and the only way to move X amount of O2 mass to make Y hp, is rpm. Later model cars, like the cobras and Ls1 motors, reach 300cfm on the intake regularly with a good port job...my own cobra heads that I ported, flowed 300cfm at 28", with better than average low to mid lift numbers...242cfm at .300 lift for example. When you add boost, the power potential is very high, with very little boost needed, since boost means nothing. Its all about airflow. A T76 can make say 880hp at 38psi, and the same turbo can also make that same 880hp on 23.5psi, according to its compressor map. The only way to make that power at the lower boost, is to get the heads flowing like gangbusters. If the heads dont flow, you have to crank the boost way up to get X amount of O2 molecules in the cylinders...but then you heat the air way up, which in turn reduces the number of O2 molecules..you also have to retard timing. Its a huge waste of potential. Power is all in the heads. 300cfm heads on an N/A 3.8 would be horrible on the street. The vacuum signal would be so poor that it would take about 3 days for the intake charge to accelerate quick enough to cram the cylinders, and to continue cramming the cylinders even when the piston is heading back up and the intake valve is open. This is something that a flow bench cant show. Even if you have good low lift numbers, you have to think about how long it takes for that wave to accelerate. Only way to make it work would be to turn 10,000rpm, like my uncle's V6 regal did back in the late 80's/early 90's...the engine built by duttweiler...he sold the car to Billy Chaffin, who turned it into a cop car. But slap a turbo on, and you dont need rpm to make big heads work.

 

[S2V6RACER]

I didn't mean to put you on the spot asking for all the flow data, but I thought you had the data right there and flowed them in your shop. I see a lot of "we" and "our" and I assumed you did this all in house.

I understand if it is a secret. Gotta keep a few of them here and there.


Good job on the hard work.

 

[SloGN]

The import crowd has been making some serious power with 4 cylinders and turbos for over 10 years now, and the key is simply massive flow potential with the heads/intake and a matching turbo. What works on a 4 cylinder will work on any other engine. These engines are incredibly peaky though. No curve whatsoever under 6000rpm, but from 6-11,000 rpm...yes, 11,000 rpm, you have 800hp out of 1.8 liters. Doesnt mean that huge flowing heads are the reason for them being a dog at lower rpm. Its cause you're dealing with such small displacement and the only way to move X amount of O2 mass to make Y hp, is rpm. Later model cars, like the cobras and Ls1 motors, reach 300cfm on the intake regularly with a good port job...my own cobra heads that I ported, flowed 300cfm at 28", with better than average low to mid lift numbers...242cfm at .300 lift for example. When you add boost, the power potential is very high, with very little boost needed, since boost means nothing. Its all about airflow. A T76 can make say 880hp at 38psi, and the same turbo can also make that same 880hp on 23.5psi, according to its compressor map. The only way to make that power at the lower boost, is to get the heads flowing like gangbusters. If the heads dont flow, you have to crank the boost way up to get X amount of O2 molecules in the cylinders...but then you heat the air way up, which in turn reduces the number of O2 molecules..you also have to retard timing. Its a huge waste of potential. Power is all in the heads. 300cfm heads on an N/A 3.8 would be horrible on the street. The vacuum signal would be so poor that it would take about 3 days for the intake charge to accelerate quick enough to cram the cylinders, and to continue cramming the cylinders even when the piston is heading back up and the intake valve is open. This is something that a flow bench cant show. Even if you have good low lift numbers, you have to think about how long it takes for that wave to accelerate. Only way to make it work would be to turn 10,000rpm, like my uncle's V6 regal did back in the late 80's/early 90's...the engine built by duttweiler...he sold the car to Billy Chaffin, who turned it into a cop car. But slap a turbo on, and you dont need rpm to make big heads work.

Vader

don't you think that the exhaust valve size and port flow also plays a big part into the equation of moving the x# of the spent 02 gases back out of the cylinder?

Also the four cylinders are dealing with 4 valve heads so that comaprison is somewhat vague.


also when achieving your flow #'s was the flow conducted @ 28 " of water?

Can you also tell me what angle that the valve seats were cut at 30* or 45*

 

[bison]

As Otto stated about the flow and the performance level, i dont think there will be much to gained on an engine that never goes over 6k vs a well ported set of GN1's. You will need the high lift, high rpm solid cammed engine to take good advantage of those flow numbers on our small engines. But who knows with the tremendous number at a little over .500 of 290 cfm maybe theres a little to be gained under 6k.

 

[VadersV6]

Vader

don't you think that the exhaust valve size and port flow also plays a big part into the equation of moving the x# of the spent 02 gases back out of the cylinder?

Also the four cylinders are dealing with 4 valve heads so that comaprison is somewhat vague.


also when achieving your flow #'s was the flow conducted @ 28 " of water?

Can you also tell me what angle that the valve seats were cut at 30* or 45*

#1- Yes, exhaust flow plays a big part when moving alot of air. On a forced induction engine, the exhaust should flow 65-75% of what the intake flows. Similar effects can be seen by simply modifying the cam specs.
#2. Its not about 2 valves, 4 valves or 5 valves...its about moving alot of air and how having high flowing heads will allow you to make alot of power, while being in a much happier spot of the compressor map.
#3. I said in the post, 28".
#4. The valves were backcut 15 and 30 degrees, and 45 of course, and the seats had the standard 30 and 45, but the final angle was more like a sweeping 75 degree into the pocket, much like honda heads....although the honda heads pretty much have no angle past the 45...it drops right into the pocket. Part of the reason they flow so well at low lifts...not just the inherent low flow that comes with having 4 valve heads. I started with 216cfm at .500. In the end I had barely removed 1/8" from the cross section, so velocity was retained.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Ok, you all know you want em so, what would it cost??

 

[KevinB]

Nick, Can you tell us what they did on the exhaust side and also what size bore plate was used when flowing them?
Thanks, Kip

^^I am also interested in what size boreplate was used. What were the numbers at .400-.500-.600? How much was the opening of the port enlarged? How much would this port job cost?

Thanks in advance.

 

[DCVING 6]

SO go install a set of these TA heads and put the number down.
Im dying to see what they can do.

Who is currently the fastest running TA heads so far?

Dennis Butt went 8.94 @ 155

I made 1013 hp and 766.35 torque Today with my buick powered mustang.
This was with my DLS Motor with TA heads.31 pounds of boost with a 47/80
turbo.Big thanks to Dan at DLS for building one hell of a Motor and Joe lubrant for his help with the Tune.

Dennis

88 mustang gt 8.94 at 155.75mph (Buick powered)
Winner of Q8 at midwest challange 2003
Runner up Q8 at midwest challange 2002

 

[SloGN]

nick

how many inches of water were the flow tests conducted at ? Also what were the valve seat angles and the back cut of the valve on the intake and exhaust?


sorry vader didn't mean to ask you that ?

also vader i understand that it's all about the mass flow thru the heads no matter how many valves there are in the head. It just seems that 4 valves seem to do it alot easier

 

[bison]

Dennis Butt went 8.94 @ 155

Do you happen to see the dyno info which shows the rpms/hp. It must be up around 7500rpm if not 8000. Just want to know what it takes to really take advantage of that flow potential. Definitely a lot of rpm on a 231ci engine. Looks like we can forget about any hydraulic cammed engines under 300 ci.

 

[SGRIM]

Why can't the 3.8 be turned 7K? Look at what Billy A. did with a high revving small CI motor. Dan at DLS told me to turn my TFS motor, not girdled, 67-6800 no problem!

 

[DCVING 6]

Do you happen to see the dyno info which shows the rpms/hp. It must be up around 7500rpm if not 8000. Just want to know what it takes to really take advantage of that flow potential. Definitely a lot of rpm on a 231ci engine. Looks like we can forget about any hydraulic cammed engines under 300 ci.

I'll have to ask him if he still has the sheets.

It was actually a stock stroke 4.1 stg 2, was told 252ci. DLS ported TA heads, champion intake, GT47/80. I know the car was at least 3200# (Mustang Hybrid). The 8.94 run had a lazy 60ft time too, definatly more left in it.

 

[bison]

Why can't the 3.8 be turned 7K? Look at what Billy A. did with a high revving small CI motor. Dan at DLS told me to turn my TFS motor, not girdled, 67-6800 no problem!

Who said they couldnt be? They need to be turned high to take advantage of those heads. The really high hp ones hit 8500-9000 rpm. Typically you dont see hydraulic cammed engines over 6500 rpm though, and over 99% of TR's are hydraulically cammed.

 

[V6gofast]

Head Flow

The heads that are on Dennis Butt's engine where a set of TA street eliminator heads with just basic work. They had a good 3 angle valve job
and a hand bowl blend and basic casting deburr job. Big flow numbers in an
application that won't be able to utilize them is just a topic for good bench
racing.

 

[SloGN]

The heads that are on Dennis Butt's engine where a set of TA street eliminator heads with just basic work. They had a good 3 angle valve job
and a hand bowl blend and basic casting deburr job. Big flow numbers in an
application that won't be able to utilize them is just a topic for good bench
racing.

aint that the truth