New Buick heads up class (67 turbo, etc...)

[S2V6RACER]

...again, another of those classes in which my car won't be allowed in...The rules say:

1° - "must be a "109" buick block...well I have a T/A block...
2° - "turbo size 67mm"...I have a 72mm...

I simply hate these f***ing classes TSO, TSM, TSL, TSE, and now, I suppose it will be "THS"!...

LONG LIVE BRACKET RACING WHERE EVERYONE HAS A CHANCE!

Claude.

Claude you can fit into TSO/TSL so why you hate these classes I don't understand. Remember you chose your combination so don't take it out on the guys who built their cars and these classes that are already existing.

Comparatively to the TSM guys, your combo should be capable of high 8 second passes so just remember if you are not running there by letting your combo in somebody else will be there, so just a point to consider.


Show up next year ready for some heads up racing at your select Buick event and I'm sure you will find a place to race.

 

[V8Assassin]

It would appear that this class has the potential to spill over into TSM given the ability to get into the nine's with these combo's. Full weight ac cars with a 200 have been going nines.

So, my question is this, how will this new class affect TSM? Will there be any rule changes within TSM to help distance the two classes? For instance, the weight requirements for both classes are pretty close, would TSM drop some weight? Both classes require stock style suspension, would TSM start allowing rear coil overs?

I am interested because I am currently working on a TSM setup and want to know more about how the new class will differentiate itself further from the current classes. Like I said earlier, this class looks like it will be capable of times that are basically pretty close to what most of the TSM field is currently running.

 

[RUQWKNF]

Kudos to Kip.

Interesting. Very interesting.
Here's my take.

The problem is, it will eventually turn into another TSM class unless the rules are tweaked.

By tweaking I mean this:

- Limit cubic inch size to 235 CI (pump the motors if need be, and maybe put a requirment for "stock unmodified" balancers only. (No BHJ or Buick Motorsports) This way 98% of us can play, and it would be a low 11 - 10 second class.

- TH200 trans only, no transbrakes period and any converter.

- Drag radials only. (BFG, Nitto, Hoosier, Goodyear and Mickey Thompson) No bias ply DOT tires of any kind. (meaning, no M&H Racemasters, ET Streets, Hoosier Quick Time Pros etc etc)

The rest of the rules I like.

If this is supposed to be a street car class, why have a class that is so close to TSM? As far as power capability is concerned when a stroker 109 is thrown into the mix. A 248-250 CI 109 with a 67 turbo could easily run mid 9's with these rules. I don't know of very many 235 CI built motors running mid 9's with a 67 turbo. John Crawford's GN is a fine example of a well thought out high 9 second, legitimate 235CI, full weight street GN combo, and I'm sure there are a few others out there that are not on the radar if you know what I mean. These rules are very similar to the TSE rules of yor, back before they allowed stage motors into the class and before we had affordable stroker motors. (Pre '99) Some might say the power is completely limited by the size turbo, but cubic inches also plays into this equation with regards to 109 blocks. We've seen it happen for years in TSS and TSM.

Of course you could always throw in the stipulation similar to Pinks All Out and set an index for the class and let anything run. But that wouldn't be very fun IMO.

I personally would like see this class shaped around real street driven cars that the average Joe could afford to build and race. And in my honest opinion, this would be a car that would run 11.00's to 10.50's consistantly and still have the capability of being driven anywhere, anytime.


We all know low 11's (11.40's - 11.20's) are an everyday thing as far as reliability is concerned, but once you start pushing for mid 10's or faster things start to break and the bills start pilling up fast. And that is when all the fun goes out the window. For one, I would love to race in this type of class with my current car. Eventho it would cost me a considerable amount of money to be competitive. (heads, roller rockers, roller cam, ported stock intake, 70mm t-body, matching plenum, suspension work, basically $2700 - $2900 more on top of what has already been spent) With my current combo and a built TH200, my car should be somewhere in the low 11's consistantly. It would take those extra parts to run consistantly in the 10's. And with the high mileage my stock engine has now, there's no telling how many 10 second passes we'd see before Sarah became a member of the DOTC club. And I know there are alot more of you out there that are in the same boat as me.

I like this class idea, and I will pass the word along to all my friends with combos that would fit the class.

Just my O2's worth and sorry so long winded.

Patrick

 

[ijames]

I like the idea of a new stock block class but I think it needs to be much slower than tsm or you will really hurt the car count in both. I think a 62 mm turbo limit to keep the cars in the high to mid 10's would be good, and I favor that instead of just making it a 10.50 index class with bigger turbos or everyone will be within .05 of the index and it will be just like bracket racing. Staying well above 10.0 keeps you from needing full cages, licenses, and the extra safety gear that kicks in at 10.0, which makes it easy for many more people to give it a try, and 200's will hold up a lot longer if you want to require them. Same stock appearing rules as tsm, allow front mounts, and allow aluminum heads with a weight penalty. This gives people who want to try heads up racing a place to start without committing to a full tsm effort right off the bat, and would let most hot street cars compete (with maybe a turbo change). Anyway, just my thoughts .

 

[jasjamz]

I agree with Patrick to keep it much cheaper. I like the idea.

 

[BLACK6PACK]

That's my whole point. Keep it cheaper. I think the 67 turbo is just too close to the 70, add in alky like v6racer mentioned and there is very little time between TSM and HST. I put alky on my car over 10 years ago, so I know what it can do. I pulled 545 rwtq with no tuning on my mickey mouse setup on 22 lbs of boost with 93 and alky. Imagine what a 67 turbo can do at 35 lbs of boost with all the goodies. The good thing about a 61 turbo (what I suggest) is that they are cheap ($750) compared to what it takes to run TSM ($50,000+). I'd like to see guys drive to the track, break off mid 10s and drive home with $1500 in their pocket.

To those that have 67 turbos and run high 9s/low 10s, they can afford a small turbo and still fit in this class, IMHO.

 

[toofastforyou]

Claude you can fit into TSO/TSL so why you hate these classes I don't understand. Remember you chose your combination so don't take it out on the guys who built their cars and these classes that are already existing.

Comparatively to the TSM guys, your combo should be capable of high 8 second passes so just remember if you are not running there by letting your combo in somebody else will be there, so just a point to consider.


Show up next year ready for some heads up racing at your select Buick event and I'm sure you will find a place to race.

Ted, I'm sorry if I said that I "hated" the classes, that's not what I meant...I should've said that I'm not too crazy about them because there always seem to be something on my car that keeps it from qualifying for this or that class... ...and don't worry, I'm not blaming the other guys either.

I built my car to be a fast street car based on my personal choices ans also with what I could afford. Now, I'm definitely not going to re-do my setup just to please the rule makers. That's why I feel that bracket racing is the way to go (for ME at least!..:wink: ) and one last detail, it's my personal taste, but I really prefer handicap style racing over heads-up, and all the classes seem to favor heads-up racing...:frown: With handicaps, even a slower car has a chance at winning, not always the faster car...


Claude

 

[quickt]

It would appear that this class has the potential to spill over into TSM given the ability to get into the nine's with these combo's. Full weight ac cars with a 200 have been going nines.

So, my question is this, how will this new class affect TSM? Will there be any rule changes within TSM to help distance the two classes? For instance, the weight requirements for both classes are pretty close, would TSM drop some weight? Both classes require stock style suspension, would TSM start allowing rear coil overs?

I am interested because I am currently working on a TSM setup and want to know more about how the new class will differentiate itself further from the current classes. Like I said earlier, this class looks like it will be capable of times that are basically pretty close to what most of the TSM field is currently running.

TSM car weighs 100lb less. TSM Turbo makes 100HP more. ET will be no where close to TSM.

 

[V8Assassin]

The problem is, it will eventually turn into another TSM class unless the rules are tweaked.


If this is supposed to be a street car class, why have a class that is so close to TSM? As far as power capability is concerned when a stroker 109 is thrown into the mix. A 248-250 CI 109 with a 67 turbo could easily run mid 9's with these rules. I don't know of very many 235 CI built motors running mid 9's with a 67 turbo. John Crawford's GN is a fine example of a well thought out high 9 second, legitimate 235CI, full weight street GN combo, and I'm sure there are a few others out there that are not on the radar if you know what I mean. These rules are very similar to the TSE rules of yor, back before they allowed stage motors into the class and before we had affordable stroker motors. (Pre '99) Some might say the power is completely limited by the size turbo, but cubic inches also plays into this equation with regards to 109 blocks. We've seen it happen for years in TSS and TSM.



Patrick

I like the idea of a new stock block class but I think it needs to be much slower than tsm or you will really hurt the car count in both. I think a 62 mm turbo limit to keep the cars in the high to mid 10's would be good, and I favor that instead of just making it a 10.50 index class with bigger turbos or everyone will be within .05 of the index and it will be just like bracket racing. Staying well above 10.0 keeps you from needing full cages, licenses, and the extra safety gear that kicks in at 10.0, which makes it easy for many more people to give it a try, and 200's will hold up a lot longer if you want to require them. Same stock appearing rules as tsm, allow front mounts, and allow aluminum heads with a weight penalty. This gives people who want to try heads up racing a place to start without committing to a full tsm effort right off the bat, and would let most hot street cars compete (with maybe a turbo change). Anyway, just my thoughts .

I agree with Patrick to keep it much cheaper. I like the idea.

That's my whole point. Keep it cheaper. I think the 67 turbo is just too close to the 70, add in alky like v6racer mentioned and there is very little time between TSM and HST. I put alky on my car over 10 years ago, so I know what it can do. I pulled 545 rwtq with no tuning on my mickey mouse setup on 22 lbs of boost with 93 and alky. Imagine what a 67 turbo can do at 35 lbs of boost with all the goodies. The good thing about a 61 turbo (what I suggest) is that they are cheap ($750) compared to what it takes to run TSM ($50,000+). I'd like to see guys drive to the track, break off mid 10s and drive home with $1500 in their pocket.

To those that have 67 turbos and run high 9s/low 10s, they can afford a small turbo and still fit in this class, IMHO.

TSM car weighs 100lb less. TSM Turbo makes 100HP more. ET will be no where close to TSM.

I understand the difference as stated in the above mentioned rule discussion. I was under the impression that this was an open discussion as to how a new class would be shaped and potential pitfalls as they possibly relate to current class rules.

It seems clear that either modification of the suggested rules would need to happen in order to slow the cars down as to keep them cheaper and not interfere with TSM as it is currently configured. The other possible scenario could be modification of the suggested rules as well as some minor changes to TSM such as a weight reduction, turbo size increase, or further suspension mods.

Personally I like things just the way they are! I am not opposed to a new class, however there should be significant differences between it and the closest competing class. It would seem from other's suggestions that the new class should be centered with not only street car mods and manners, but also a street car budget in mind. Just my .02.

 

[Grumpy]

why not an SFI balancer ?? We needed one so the car is legal to race anywhere we go.. got tired of getting kicked out of tracks oh can RACING and "BUDGET" be used in the same sentence ??

 

[imjoesnuffy]

Great idea Kip,

I really like the idea of limiting it to 235 CI. The average guy on the street is not running a stroker motor. To be really competitive in this class you would have to have a stroker motor I think. Also restricting it to just DRs is more in keeping with the street theme. I would be very interested in running in it when I could.

If the class were limited to 235 CI, it is just a matter of the right bolt on parts, tuning and driver ability. I think with those parameters as well as what has already been posted, it would be a very competitive class with probably the biggest field of all.

Just my $.02

 

[BLACK6PACK]

What all is needed to certify a car for faster than 10 seconds?

 

[Grumpy]

What all is needed to certify a car for faster than 10 seconds?

the halo (9.99 OR 135mph) for the cage and a license

 

[V6RACER]

oh can RACING and "BUDGET" be used in the same sentence ??

Dan, I've said many times before... All it takes is Cubic Dollars...

No Budget=No Race

 

[SGRIM]

Alot of great things have been mentioned. To me the ultimate way to seperate from TSM would be turbo. Maybe a 62 or a 64 even. Classes are very similar and I think an additional class would be great. All the above concerns can be addressed by a smaller turbo. Making 9's almost impossilbe, that way the motors and trans can last longer...

I vote for no transbrakes and DR's!

 

[Grumpy]

Dan, I've said many times before... All it takes is Cubic Dollars...

No Budget=No Race

I think people figure that out after the first few days racing ... hey lets go try "this and this" .. then the hook is set

 

[Robert Wilson]

Here is what has been covered so far:

Very basic over view of the rules below:


3500# for an iron headed 8445 casting head
3650# for an aluminum headed aftermarket head with stock style pattern
(no stage heads)
Block is to be a 109 Buick V6 only
Transmission has to be a 200R4 with any converter allowed
Any air to air intercooler, no liquid or add on cooling allowed
After market fuel management allowed
Factory AC and heat equipment required
Factory stock appearing Type 1 or 2 DIS. Cam position sensor required.
Alchy injection allowed, gasoline must be used as primary fuel source.
Turbo will be limited to a 67mm that is presently being sold to the public.
( no customs one off stuff)
Full exhaust required, must muffle and exit in stock location. Single allowed.
max size of single ordaul 3.5 inches
Stock fuel tank must be in place but a fuel cell can be added.
4 matching wheels required.
Slick up 10.5 sidewall designation, Drag radial up 275/60


This is just a start and many more things will have be looked at but I believe it should give everyone interested an idea of what kinda cars this class is being put together for.

Any discussion of rear end and rear suspension modification limits????

 

[V8Assassin]

Alot of great things have been mentioned. To me the ultimate way to seperate from TSM would be turbo. Maybe a 62 or a 64 even. Classes are very similar and I think an additional class would be great. All the above concerns can be addressed by a smaller turbo. Making 9's almost impossilbe, that way the motors and trans can last longer...

I vote for no transbrakes and DR's!

I agree an additional class would be great!

If properly set up it could help create a market for the "average" street racer/car owner to show up to and compete.

The problem is that is what TSM was intended to do!

Any class will find owners who are willing to push the limits and spend the extra dollars that are needed to win.

I do not believe TSM should be pushed to the "race car" level, but neither do I believe that this class should be limited to what TSM cars "cannot" do.

This should be an opportunity to provide both sensible parameters to create and grow.

And that's all I got to say about that!

 

[bison]

This will still become more of a race class than a street class just like TSM. Any TSM car that is less than 235ci could quickly be ballasted, tires switched, turbo switched to a 67HPQ, and trans switched to a 200. Still a very expensive class if you want to be anywhere near the top. Even more to maintain the car. The 200 can live but every racer will need 2 or 3 backup units. All billet internals including output shaft. Thats over $9k in transmissions. Converters dont matter since the quickest and fastest all run PTC NL converters already and the only difference would be the stator spline. I dont see 9.30-9.40 being out of the question. I can think of several ways to extract a lot more out of the 200 transmission. The mods would be expensive but almost required if you wanted to compete effectively. Trans brakes should always be allowed in any drag racing class. Using a 3 speed trans would remove a lot of cost from this class.

 

[GSX-PKV]

Including WORKING air conditioning, power steering, a full factory interior, plates and insurance, and even a factory spare tire could make the class perfect for real street cars.