New TE44 turbo install. Fluttering at 12 psi, why?

[Fast Farmer]

Back in 1998 I fixed mine with a 3.00 spring from ace hardware,Still on the car.that's how the old timers did it[/qPlease elaborate for us on the spring thing.

 

[Fast Farmer]

Please elaborate on the spring thing.

 

[Flyin Brian]

with speed density, when you hear the surging, you don't feel it.

I have not run a blow-thru MAF, that was Bruce Plecan. Its an interesting setup, but has its own set of tuning quirks.

Bob

Thats true Bob. It got better when I went to SD chip. Still hear it but it does not mess with the fueling since there is no surging MAF signal.

 

[UNGN]

It's not 500ftlbs switched on and off. The engine only has a chance to swallow what gets past the throttle blade. If you want to put money on it I'll take my car and put one of these turbos on it and wire the throttle so it cant open and surges as much as possible and I'll run the car on a dyno with an electric brake until the brake is too hot to operate. I'll just hold it there for 3 minutes if the dyno brake doesn't over heat. I can do a graph showing that there is no interruption in torque also. $500 or more bet.

I don't think you have experienced what I'm talking about.

Here is the scenario:

I've raced all day at the track, 180 miles away from my house... I've run 11.60's all day, but it's late and I want to get home before 1 Am, the motor is still hot, so I leave the boost @23 psi. Cruising down the road @ 65 mph trying to get good gas milage, a Honda Prelude with a fart pipe pull up next to me shoots a rev and want to go.

I put the car in drive, and at 3000 RPM the turbo wil spool @ about 1/4 - 1/3 throttle. Since I still had 150 miles to go, and he was't worth wasting a gallon of gas on, I figured I'd hold the boost @15-16 psi with my foot, and dust him. When I tipped into the throttle boost went to 15 psi and the car started violently hammering.

The turbo wasn't "fluttering" the whole car was Hammering. .. and I guarantee you it will show up on a dyno graph.

I'm sure many people with TA49's/TE44's have experienced something similar.

 

[BobbyBuick]

My car back in 98 went 11.69 with a TE44 and a stock ported IC.As soon as I put the V4 on it Fluttered BAD.never did it with the stock IC.Installed this and I ve run it lke that ever since 19 PSI on pump gas

I think it happens because the turbo and IC are so much more efficient it is slamming the wastegate open and closed quickly.A HD wastegate is hard to turn down low enough the spring is a good compromise

 

[we4Mateo]

My car back in 98 went 11.69 with a TE44 and a stock ported IC.As soon as I put the V4 on it Fluttered BAD.never did it with the stock IC.Installed this and I ve run it lke that ever since 19 PSI on pump gasView attachment 163772I think it happens because the turbo and IC are so much more efficient it is slamming the wastegate open and closed quickly.A HD wastegate is hard to turn down low enough the spring is a good compromise

Will it still have the same effect with an RJC style boost controller? I know the ecm starts to put pressure on the gate before max boost but my gate with HD actuator should stay shut all the way until max boost is reach, thus eliminating the fluttering gate? TIA.

 

[bison]

I don't think you have experienced what I'm talking about.

Here is the scenario:

I've raced all day at the track, 180 miles away from my house... I've run 11.60's all day, but it's late and I want to get home before 1 Am, the motor is still hot, so I leave the boost @23 psi. Cruising down the road @ 65 mph trying to get good gas milage, a Honda Prelude with a fart pipe pull up next to me shoots a rev and want to go.

I put the car in drive, and at 3000 RPM the turbo wil spool @ about 1/4 - 1/3 throttle. Since I still had 150 miles to go, and he was't worth wasting a gallon of gas on, I figured I'd hold the boost @15-16 psi with my foot, and dust him. When I tipped into the throttle boost went to 15 psi and the car started violently hammering.

The turbo wasn't "fluttering" the whole car was Hammering. .. and I guarantee you it will show up on a dyno graph.

I'm sure many people with TA49's/TE44's have experienced something similar.

You want to make a bet about the power? I'll do it this coming week. I'll hold the throttle at any angle you want. I'll data log it all.

 

[we4Mateo]

So do the 5857 turbo's exibit this problem too or is it eliminated by the bigger exhaust wheel over a TE44?

 

[1KWIKSIX]

So do the 5857 turbo's exibit this problem too or is it eliminated by the bigger exhaust wheel over a TE44?

I'm running an S ported compressor cover on my Precision DBB 5857 (.63 A/R) and have not experienced any surge. My car has a PTE intercooler too.

I'm sure that this turbo with ported shroud eliminates the compressor surge described in the above posts ......perhaps it's the sum of all the other parts that are helping? I dunno

Have used both HD and standard wastegate actuators & no evidence of surge with either

Here's the other stuff in my combo:
-Steve Munro's 62mm TB & Hogged out Dog House
-RJC Plate
-4" Cold Air Intake
-85mm (Z-06) MAF
-3 1/2" MAF Pipe
-Bob Bailey's Extender Extreme Chip
-60# injectors
-GEN II Translator
-TA Race Headers
-3" THDP
-ATRs' 2 1/2" Exhaust System with Pit Bulls
-Hi Flo Metal Matrix Catalytic Convertor

 

[Jerryl]

. . . . Curious - anybody running a combo similar to mine without a MAF (some kind of speed-density system like MAFTPro or XFI)? Can you comment on engine bucking while the turbo is surging?
Thanks,

I have a local friend who runs stock motor w/ CC980 springs, TE44, PP, Alky, HD actuator (Set at 24PSI), 3000 PTC NL, and it surges.
He runs a TT-SD in open loop, still has the stock MAF on the inlet side, CAS SLIC, cold air kit.
He said; "when it surges, I just step on the gas pedal a bit more . . . . and it goes away"

Another local friend runs a TA49, stock IC, PP, DP, stock WG, no springs, TT 5.6, NO SURGE!
IMHO . . . . with a stock "More restrictive" IC), the mass flow at the same surge PR after the IC is less . . . . and matches the engine's requirement better, so you see less chance of surge.

 

[we4Mateo]

I have a local friend who runs stock motor w/ CC980 springs, TE44, PP, Alky, HD actuator (Set at 24PSI), 3000 PTC NL, and it surges.
He runs a TT-SD in open loop, still has the stock MAF on the inlet side, CAS SLIC, cold air kit.
He said; "when it surges, I just step on the gas pedal a bit more . . . . and it goes away"

Another local friend runs a TA49, stock IC, PP, DP, stock WG, no springs, TT 5.6, NO SURGE!
IMHO . . . . with a stock "More restrictive" IC), the mass flow at the same surge PR after the IC is less . . . . and matches the engine's requirement better, so you see less chance of surge.

The stock IC is basically working as a restriction thus making the output more in line with what the engine can take. Lower max boost levels, no alky, and stock boost control also help. A: lower max boost usually means more throttle thus eating the charge at part throttle better, B: alky makes the charge more efficient = more surge, and C: the stock boost controler opens the gate before max boost thus slowing the turbo down.

I'd be interested in knowing these three factors in the two setups above as well. I didn't see A on setup #2 nor B and C on either. Thanks for the info.

 

[Jerryl]

The stock IC is basically working as a restriction thus making the output more in line with what the engine can take. Lower max boost levels, no alky, and stock boost control also help. A: lower max boost usually means more throttle thus eating the charge at part throttle better, B: alky makes the charge more efficient = more surge, and C: the stock boost controler opens the gate before max boost thus slowing the turbo down.
I'd be interested in knowing these three factors in the two setups above as well. I didn't see A on setup #2 nor B and C on either. Thanks for the info.

Car 2 runs 19 PSI on 93, no alky . . . . stock WG, no porting on the IC.
Also has a 2800 PTC LU.

It is also my hypothesis that the converter has an effect on it as well.
Decreased load from a high stall converter at a given RPM = less boost = less mass flow = no surge.

"Old skool" 73 year old drives this car, wanted "Zero lag" as from his old BB days . . . . got "it" with the PTC. (Still street races and beats Must*** and Cam**** regularly)

 

[we4Mateo]

Car 2 runs 19 PSI on 93, no alky . . . . stock WG, no porting on the IC.
Also has a 2800 PTC LU.

It is also my hypothesis that the converter has an effect on it as well.
Decreased load from a high stall converter at a given RPM = less boost = less mass flow = no surge.

Old skool 73 year old drives this car (Still street races and beats Must*** and Cam****), wanted "Zero lag" as from his old BB days . . . . got it with the PTC.

Right on 73 year old! I know a guy like that who recently purchased his first GN. I will agree with the converter hypothesis too. My Vig stalls around 2700'ish and did decrease the tendency to surge. When the alky sprays it still surges, but minor and to no ill-effect on the car's operation.

 

[Lil Truck]

I know this post is old, I wanted to research surging problems with a PTE SLIC.

I currently have no surge issue with my combo and running mid to low 11s.

MFS 5931 garret .63 spools instantly!
55lb injectors
212 FT cam
Champion heads & intake
Stock inter cooler
Stock ported TB
Stock ported intake bell
Stock MAF w/KN filter
Stock 40k short block

Stock 40k trans w/shift kit and billet HD servo
PTC 9.5 NLU 2800@0 boost
Stock suspension & gears

I have a PTE SLIC that I have never installed because I wanted to fully learn the extent of some of the stock parts.
The PTE is much heavier also, anyone have problems with mounts or bolts breaking?
It appears from all I have read that the free flowing MAF & IC are where the surging becomes a problem?

New input on this is appreciated!

 

[Lil Truck]

I know this post is old, I wanted to research surging problems with a PTE SLIC.

I currently have no surge issue with my combo and running mid to low 11s.

MFS 5931 garret .63 spools instantly!
55lb injectors
212 FT cam
Champion heads & intake
Stock inter cooler
Stock ported TB
Stock ported intake bell
Stock MAF w/KN filter
Stock 40k short block

Stock 40k trans w/shift kit and billet HD servo
PTC 9.5 NLU 2800@0 boost
Stock suspension & gears

I have a PTE SLIC that I have never installed because I wanted to fully learn the extent of some of the stock parts.
The PTE is much heavier also, anyone have problems with mounts or bolts breaking?
It appears from all I have read that the free flowing MAF & IC are where the surging becomes a problem?

New input on this is appreciated!

I forgot a few things on my combo

Stock exhaust elbow
2.5 ATR DP
2.5 dual pipes exhaust

I expect most are running a 3" or larger DP with the surging problem?

 

[we4Mateo]

It's a combination of things that cause surge to varying degrees. Basically the turbo is putting out more air than the engine can eat. Make the engine eat more at all rpms or make the turbo less efficient. It's really only wot surge you need to worry about. My car had bad part throttle surge where it would buck from the turbulent air through the maf. A tornado in the intake fixed it by, you guessed it, making the turbo less efficient on the compressor side. A higher stall and better cam help as it causes the engine to, you guessed it, eat more air. I personally think a cam doesn't help much though because it causes the turbo to be more efficient from extra exhaust energy while also making the engine eat more so it's a wash, depending on cam specs and how you install it. Clear as mud?

Your results may/will vary.

 

[Lil Truck]

Thanks, all the information is great. I may get to do some street, track and Dyno testing with the PTE SLIC and 3" DP this winter to spring.

 

[BuickMike]

So after reading all this, I guess that with my combo (I have a Racegate and MBC) I can either get a tornado (I'm not big on this idea) or just work around it until I go with a bigger turbo one day, which was my original intention with this car. Would a lighter wastegate spring possibly fix this? I issue is most promintent when alky is coming on at around 12psi.

 

[bison]

Thanks, all the information is great. I may get to do some street, track and Dyno testing with the PTE SLIC and 3" DP this winter to spring.

Let me know if you want to try a .82 a/r ex housing when you test

 

[Lil Truck]

Let me know if you want to try a .82 a/r ex housing when you test

Thanks Brian, I will contact you! Hope to be testing Jan-Mar.