Next Project: Front Suspension

Alky V6

Let's go racing, boyz!
Joined
Jul 29, 2001
Right now the front suspension is still stock, including the front brakes.
The focus will be on providing a way to adjust the left side spring to adjust the weight loads for all four corners of the car. I have the feeling that the spring rate is not going to be a big deal for the front, unless I change to a different spring other than the stock springs that are in the car now.

The plan is to stick with the stock lower control arms, unless a large advantage in handling can be had by changing them out.

I'll be looking into components to control bump steer.

And last, I'll be modifying the upper control arms to include an adjustable travel limiter.
 
You need some buckets or weight jackers for the from Don. The only drawback with the jackers is the shock has to be relocated.
 
You need some buckets or weight jackers for the from Don. The only drawback with the jackers is the shock has to be relocated.
I'm looking to keep the shocks where they are. There must be another way to easily adjust the springs without having to break a ball joint and install spacers or cutting a spring.

For the moment I've taken a spring clamp and clamped down the right side spring which I suspect has the most load on it. It has leveled the car out, whereas it's always been high on the right side. Front and back. I'm sure it has something to do with the fact that the car was in an accident before I bought it. It appears that the left front was hit, judging by the look of the frame. I think the left front suspension framework sits up and back in relation to level. Back is OK. That offsets the front tires a bit which helps with the lights to get a better 60 foot. Not sure exactly how far back it sits though.
The stance of the car with the spring clamp is just what I'm looking for. It has also brought in the rear level. I'm wondering if I should just cut 1/4 coil at a time off the right spring until I have the stance and four corner weights I'm looking for. I've cut springs before in high school. Not a big deal as long as you use a soaked rag or running water to control how far the heat goes up the spring.

Should I plan on preloading any of the corner weights? Or just try to even them out, side to side?

On the travel limiters, what's a common extension range people are using? Two inches? Even less?
 
Smiley's Racing :: Product Search
This might help Don but you can use buckets with shocks in the stock location. You will have to have some sort of limit strap to keep the spring and bucket from dropping out when you launch but it can be done. Pain in the a$$ though. As far as the car being higher on one side, have you had the car weighed yet? If not you need to get it scaled and find out what percentages it's at. You need front to back, side to side and each corner to get a good idea of where you're at and it will help when you launch.
 
Smiley's Racing :: Product Search
This might help Don but you can use buckets with shocks in the stock location. You will have to have some sort of limit strap to keep the spring and bucket from dropping out when you launch but it can be done. Pain in the a$$ though. As far as the car being higher on one side, have you had the car weighed yet? If not you need to get it scaled and find out what percentages it's at. You need front to back, side to side and each corner to get a good idea of where you're at and it will help when you launch.
I did weigh it once. It was heavy on the right front and left rear. I don't recall the exact numbers, but it was way off. No matter how much air I put in the right rear air bag, I couldn't put a very big dent into the difference. That also confirms my theory of the left front being bent upwards.
I have a buddy that has scales. I just want to have the system in place to adjust the springs before I borrow the scales. I'll check your link. Thanks.
 
I did weigh it once. It was heavy on the right front and left rear. I don't recall the exact numbers, but it was way off. No matter how much air I put in the right rear air bag, I couldn't put a very big dent into the difference. That also confirms my theory of the left front being bent upwards.
I have a buddy that has scales. I just want to have the system in place to adjust the springs before I borrow the scales. I'll check your link. Thanks.

Was that with you in the car? If not then get in the car and get both ways. With and without. That way you know how much you need to offset your car.
It's not for drag cars but to get a little better idea of how to set up a car get 2 books. Street stock chasis technology and stock car dirt track technology. It will give you some better ideas of the way a chasis reacts and how to correct it. It explains going straight as well. Instead of blowing up the air bags you could add some weight to the lighter locations to see what it does. The best thing about using weights is you can add or remove them as track conditions, fuel level, or any other influences change during the day.
 
Was that with you in the car? If not then get in the car and get both ways. With and without. That way you know how much you need to offset your car.
It's not for drag cars but to get a little better idea of how to set up a car get 2 books. Street stock chasis technology and stock car dirt track technology. It will give you some better ideas of the way a chasis reacts and how to correct it. It explains going straight as well. Instead of blowing up the air bags you could add some weight to the lighter locations to see what it does. The best thing about using weights is you can add or remove them as track conditions, fuel level, or any other influences change during the day.
The weights were done with me in the driver seat. I do have noted that the weight percentage on the rear is 44.2 percent.

Correct me if I'm wrong. This is what I think is happening with my car. The left front shows signs of a front end accident. The alignment shop confirms that the left front of the car frame is bent. No idea how much. The corner weights show that the left front and the right rear is light. With the higher percentage of the weight on the front, if the left front spring was lighter or the overall left corner of the car was higher in relation to the other corners, the car would dip down at the left front and lift higher in the rear, taking weight off the right rear. This is exactly what appears to be happening with my car. The left front riding height is lower than the right front, and the right rear riding height is higher than the left rear. So the car is basically rocking back and forth between the right front and the left rear corners. The easiest way to correct this is to reduce the right front spring strength to drop the right front corner to the point that both front tires are scaling the same. This will automatically drop the right rear corner and increase the scale weight on that tire also. By me using the spring clamp, I basically tested this theory and the riding heights at the corners followed my thinking. As I clamped the spring down at the right front, of course, the right front dropped down. Also, the left front dropped some, since now the left front was being asked to carry more of its share of the front end weight. Also, the right rear corner dropped. Where before the clamp the right side ride heights were 1/2" higher front and back, after clamping the right front spring, both the right front and rear are now 1/8" higher than the left. I stopped at this point, realizing that I had to clamp the spring a bunch to get to this point, and that it would probably be best to start cutting some of the spring off.
 
I've cut springs before in high school. Not a big deal as long as you use a soaked rag or running water to control how far the heat goes up the spring.
Try a die grinder with a cut off wheel to cut the springs . Not much heat with that method.;)
 
Rather than doing a regular quote and comment I'll break it down for each thing. Hope it helps a little.

"The weights were done with me in the driver seat. I do have noted that the weight percentage on the rear is 44.2 percent."

That's good but you also need to do it when you're out of the car. This will give you an idea of how your body weight affects the car. Think of yourself as a movable weight. You also need to remember that most of the RWD GM cars come up light on the right rear. When a pegleg takes off the right rear is the one that spins so that's not unsual.

" The left front shows signs of a front end accident. The alignment shop confirms that the left front of the car frame is bent. No idea how much. The corner weights show that the left front and the right rear is light."

Did they at least say which way it was bent? I can tell you a cheap way to straighten it but you need a concrete pad a little bigger that the cars wheel base and 6 mobil trailer anchors. If you get the scales you put them under the wheels to get a weight, then remove them and with chains and a come along you can pull to get the car straight. just remember that when you pull her relax it and scale it until you get the weights right.

"With the higher percentage of the weight on the front, if the left front spring was lighter or the overall left corner of the car was higher in relation to the other corners, the car would dip down at the left front and lift higher in the rear, taking weight off the right rear."

Well as I said, for some reason most of the GM RWD line always came up light on the RR. Now with the twisting action of a launch it gets even worse. The weight transfer isn't ideal but this is going to sound funny. Have you ever been to a dirt track Don? If not you need to go and look at some of the stock body class cars. You'll see a few of them being able to pull the left front off the ground in a straight. Even some of the bomber clases can do it and they have to have the engine in the factory location. These guys have the car scaled to get the most out of weight transfer and the guy that does the work is very familuar with what springs and how much weight to place where.

"This is exactly what appears to be happening with my car.
The left front riding height is lower than the right front, and the right rear riding height is higher than the left rear. So the car is basically rocking back and forth between the right front and the left rear corners."

Well it really sounds like the chasis is twisted and that would account for the weight being different on the LF and RR. If you do the frame straightening idea you can use a floor jack under the frame to lift which corner you need to pull down and fix the issue. Kinda like a taffy pull I know but it does work.

"The easiest way to correct this is to reduce the right front spring strength to drop the right front corner to the point that both front tires are scaling the same. This will automatically drop the right rear corner and increase the scale weight on that tire also."

If you do it this way and the chasis is twisted you can get it to ride level but when you launch it's going to want to change directions as soon as you launch and max effort will be in the wrong direction.

"By me using the spring clamp, I basically tested this theory and the riding heights at the corners followed my thinking. As I clamped the spring down at the right front, of course, the right front dropped down."

One other thing you might try is to switch the front springs. If you're using a "factory" front spring set most of them have a right and a left spring. The drivers side has just a little more power to compensate for the driver. GM realized most cars will have only 1 driver in them most of the time so the LF spring will either be slightly longer or be just a little stronger.

" Also, the left front dropped some, since now the left front was being asked to carry more of its share of the front end weight. Also, the right rear corner dropped. Where before the clamp the right side ride heights were 1/2" higher front and back, after clamping the right front spring, both the right front and rear are now 1/8" higher than the left. I stopped at this point, realizing that I had to clamp the spring a bunch to get to this point, and that it would probably be best to start cutting some of the spring off."

Don't cut the spring.:eek: If you do it will have a different rate and change the handling charateristics of the car. Weigh the car first, mark the springs as to where on the car they are, and then take the springs to a dirt track chasis shop to see what the rates are currently (they have spring rate checkers). You may find the rates are reversed. Done it myself a few times so it does happen. Also take your weight measurements with you and see if they will give you a better idea of how to set up for straight. Most of them do it but don't advertise. A guy that knows how to properly scale a car and set your percentages is worth his weight in gold.
 
Check out this link. It's very obvious that the left front is bent up. See how the left front tire does not hang as low as the right front. The way I can tell it's also bent back is by the amount of spacing I had to do to the left front bumper to align it to the bodywork.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/2212425-post110.html

It's hard to imagine that I really didn't experience any bad handling problems with the car before this episode of messing with the chassis. Now watch. I'll get things setup better by the book and she'll drive like a wild chased pig.
 
If you had been told about a car that was around 90 lbs. light on the right rear, what would your guess have been about the handling?

I've been told by one fellow that my weights are completely opposite of what they should be. He said I should have preload weight on the left front and the right rear to counteract engine and axle housing torque reaction.

How the hell did this thing get down the track?
 
Check out this link. It's very obvious that the left front is bent up. See how the left front tire does not hang as low as the right front. The way I can tell it's also bent back is by the amount of spacing I had to do to the left front bumper to align it to the bodywork.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/2212425-post110.html

It's hard to imagine that I really didn't experience any bad handling problems with the car before this episode of messing with the chassis. Now watch. I'll get things setup better by the book and she'll drive like a wild chased pig.

Well the pic does seem like the left is higher but perspective can be off sometimes. You need to get it on an alignment rack and measure the frame to pad distance to make sure of how much it's been moved. As far as driving down the road you wouldn't believe what will drive straight when messed up.

If you had been told about a car that was around 90 lbs. light on the right rear, what would your guess have been about the handling?

I've been told by one fellow that my weights are completely opposite of what they should be. He said I should have preload weight on the left front and the right rear to counteract engine and axle housing torque reaction.

How the hell did this thing get down the track?

Under load (acceration) most of the weight is transfered to 3 points on the chassis. Your left front has the lowest amount of weight on it so it really doesn't make that much diff. You are rocking to some degree but if you can chain the LF and RR down to a surface and then lift the RF and LR up you should be able to pull the two of them down to level them a bit. I would losen the body bolts and your X member to help it shift some. While it's up retighten everything and see if it helps.
 
Don, don't remember if this link has been posted here before or not, but it is definitely a site you need to explore: http://www.racetec.cc/shope/ Especially page 37 - a way to tell what tire loading you need at each wheel for best launch. The author is active on the speedtalk site if you wanted to ask questions.
 
Wow. So the LF and RR do need quite a bit of weight preload to get even weights on the rear tires at launch. I'm leaning towards doing a coil-over conversion on the front to make weight adjustments much easier. The weight adjustment appears to be pretty critical. I'm starting to realize why coil-over spring adjusters are so popular. The rear, I'll use spacers for the springs if needed. I still need to find out how much the roll bar adjustment plays into the weight adjustment for the rear. Is the weight on the rear tires adjusted with the springs and then the rear leveled with the roll bar? So much to learn.
 
I'm getting pretty excited about this. If the car performed the way it did with the suspension setup completely opposite of what it should have been, what will it do with it setup correctly?
 
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