Oil ZDDP supplement

[aminga]

How much Boron does it have.

 

[lazaris]

I thought the main reason for running the additives was for protection of hydrauic flat tappet camshafts. Just about everyone is changing over to roller cams, so whats the benefit for guys in my boat? I have just over 4,000 miles and everything is fine so far.

Its basically any place where there is extreme pressure or metal to metal contact when the zinc comes into play. Thrust bearing, cam sensor gear,cyl bore etc etc.

 

[GNocide]

tribology
im not a tribologist either but i probably understand more now about it then 90% of the internet .

 

[Brer Rabbit]

Thankyou

Its basically any place where there is extreme pressure or metal to metal contact when the zinc comes into play. Thrust bearing, cam sensor gear,cyl bore etc etc.

Thats what I was looking for, but why is that camshafts are taking the beating and flatening out and not the other parts u mentioned?

 

[GNocide]

Thats what I was looking for, but why is that camshafts are taking the beating and flatening out and not the other parts u mentioned?

6 major points inside the engine will fail after the cam
rockers/push rods/ wrist pins are soon after that

 

[lazaris]

Thats what I was looking for, but why is that camshafts are taking the beating and flatening out and not the other parts u mentioned?

Thats where there is the most thus showing up first.

 

[A2000RICH]

Would love to see an oil analysis on this before plunking down $'s

here's an analysis:
i just thought i would help to clarify a few things about the use of ZDDP in our (TR's) engines and answer a few questions. in the last several months I have spent thousands of dollars having tests done on all types of oil and additives to see what was really going on and to sort out the facts---------after contacting and working with several testing labs I have gravitated to one that seems to be easy to work with and actually specializes in testing petroleum products---------they can do the tests that are specified by API and OEM's according to accepted standards and procedures--------i am going to be posting some of these tests as they relate to answering questions------i am not going to post for the purpose of denegrating other products----------attached to this post is a test done recently on pure ZDDP concentrate (as is used in ZDDPlus), also in this particular test is included a test of GM EOS and STP---------even though i trust the lab i usually prefer to do the tests blind------meaning that i don't tell them what they are testing i just label the samples with a code--------this means that on this particular chart the RED identifiers are added by me AFTER i get the test back---------to understand what these numbers really mean you have to consider dosing ratios as well as ratios of zinc to phosphorus---------the z to p ratio of ZPlus is close to EOS which is really the reference standard for EP additives and is the same ratio originally specified for API oils containing large amounts of ZDDP--------the STP has a much lower ratio of p to z----this lack of adequate phosphorus has a twofold effect---------reduces the effectiveness of the z&p combination while allowing it to be marketed to the general market--------its the phos. that they don't want in the cats-----the z has little effect--------unfortunately without the right ratio of z to p the ZDDP doesn't serve its intended purpose--------while i am not a chemical engineer i do know that the ratio of z to p in ZDDP is a fixed ratio of the ZDDP molecule. The odd ratio in STP creates reasonable doubt that all the zinc is actually from ZDDP. Odds are that it contains a trace amount of ZDDP for advertising purposes and additional zinc from some other compound--------it clearly is no substitute for EOS for break-in or fortifying newer grades of oils like API SM------the concentration of ZDDP in ZPlus is much higher overall than EOS but this has to be considered in light that EOS comes in a 16 oz bottle and ZPlus comes in a 4 oz bottle--------there is twice the amount of ZDDP in ZPlus than there is in EOS per bottle (8times more concentrated)----this allows for the proper amount of ZDDP to be added to a 5 quart oil change with much less carrier oil being added (1.5 oz)---------it takes two bottles of EOS to bring the levels of SM oil to 1987 SF standards and this means that there is nearly a quart of unknown carrier oil added in the process-------in a few days I intend to have a web site up to clarify and explain just how important these issues are for older cars..................RC

 

[A2000RICH]

EOS is being sold by AC-Delco, part# 10-106
New GM part # 12371532

GM part # for EOS is 1052367---------12371532 is the AC delco part number for the same product---------BOTH are discontinued as of mid july and the system has pretty much emptied out---------why can only be speculated--------the original EOS came in a white bottle and was labeled "Engine Oil Supplement Concentrate" and was replaced about 12 years ago with the SAME contents in a black bottle renamed "E.O.S. Assembly Lubricant"---------my guess is that years ago it was suggested to add to oil as a supplement and as cars evolved into designs that depended less on EP additives and as smog requirements tightened GM didn't want to encourage continued use of the product for anything but engine break-in---------the total elimination of the product is a mystery to us all---------apparently the general wants us all in new cars.................RC

 

[A2000RICH]

I thought the main reason for running the additives was for protection of hydrauic flat tappet camshafts. Just about everyone is changing over to roller cams, so whats the benefit for guys in my boat? I have just over 4,000 miles and everything is fine so far.

its probably true that you and all your friends have changed their cams to rollers-------sensible idea along with the turbo, intercooler, TQ convertor, heads, injectors, exhaust etc-----BUT there are a lot of guys out there with near bone stock cars that get driven-------somehow i just can't see a guy with a low mileage or mint GNX GN or TR doing a cam replacement on a mint original car just so he can safely use modern SM oil---------in addition to the cost of the cam i can't imagine how much that would devalue the car overall for most buyers-------besides while it is true that the cam is the most affected it is also true that virtually anywhere in the engine where metal rubs against metal, and there is no pressurized oiling like there is at the crank bearings, this will be a problem--------this would include but not be limited to places like pushrod tips, rocker arms and shafts, valve tips, wrist pins, timing chains--------the facts are clear-------the extremely low amount of EP additives in SM oil is certain death to older engines-------why haven't we seen as much of it as might be expected??--------while the specification for SM oil was introduced in 2004 it didn't really start hitting the shelves till second quarter this year--------probably to give the oem's time to respond to it in their designs---------i first saw it appear about two months ago while SL was dominant-------a check at Walmart this last week showed that virtually the entire inventory has changed to SM in a very short time period-----a check of several other auto parts stores showed the same turnover--------while SL had reductions of ZDDP compared to SJ SH SG and so forth with SM the level has finally dropped to the point where it will no longer provide adequate protection for our cars--------just wait till the next grade-----guess it will be SN-------its almost certain that ZDDP will be non existant in the version--------perhaps some other additive may surface but to date the only thing that looks promising is Boron and it is in its infancy and needs alot of testing and refinement--------and if it proves to be good for older cars i seriously doubt much testing is gonna be done on antiques like we care about--------if you really want to do some research and study things like proper dosing and the effects of ZDDP and its variants you should read a couple papers-------- an american study published by the SAE and a japanese study conducted by Nippon Oil--------these studies are the result of tests done on many fleet cars in police and taxi service over millions of miles---------According to the SAE Tech Bulletin # 770087, operation of a flat tappet engine without adequate EP additives such as ZDDP quickly leads to lifter foot scuffing and cam lobe wear. Camshafts are typically only surface hardened leaving the core ductile for strength. According to the SAE bulletin, once cam lobe wear reaches 0.0002, “subsequent wear is usually rapid and catastrophic”--------by the way, two ten-thousandths of an inch is one fifth the thickness of an average human hair...............RC

 

[hemity]

Was the STP test on the blue or red?

 

[A2000RICH]

Was the STP test on the blue or red?

i did both of them--------the zinc and phos was the same-----if i remember correctly there was quite a difference in the viscosity-----------i recently had someone bring me one of the old metal cans with the pop off top and it will probably be part of a future test.............RC

 

[turbo nasty]

I have a couple of the old metal pull tab GM EOS cans. Wonder what the levels are in that

 

[Chrisk]

I hope its not some kind of Slick 50 B.S.

 

[GNocide]

I hope its not some kind of Slick 50 B.S.

I edited a personal attack from this post. Please avoid personal attacks and stick to the thread subject.

Lee Burough