What are the options on the pickup solution to using a 3.590 or 3.625 stoke? I looked at a dutteweiller pump and looked simple, but is there a pickup in the pan or does it just suck off the hole in the pan? Also are the stock type gears still used to supply the oil? Whats involed in moving the pickup to the front cap? Is there a gain in running a dutt. style pump over a pickup? Im having a crank cut custom and am thinking about 3.59 and 6.5 rods. but a 3.65 is'nt out of the question.
Oiling for Stage I
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Why not just use a pan pickup like a Duttweiller system and then plumb it into the stock pump? Get yourself an external oil filter adapter and run a turbo saver to get your external lines to plumb oil wherever you want. I'm not sure if the Duttweiller is a positive displacement like the stock one is but the factory one could be modified just like any other if you only run an external pickup to it.
Simple and cheap.
Simple and cheap.
turbodave231
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Your alternative on a Stage 1 block is to run a wet sump. In order to have your rods (6.5 Carrillo) clear the block with a 3.590 or 3.625 stroke, you will need to grind (and you will break into) the stock location oil pump pickup passage.
You can ream this oil passage out (after you have ground it for clearance) and press in a piece of copper or brass tube. You can carefully peen the tube in the area you just ground out. This will allow you to use the pickup at #2 main. I had a nice S1 4.1 that was done this way.
I would consider the full Dutweiller system or the wet sump with a stock #2 pickup. I don't think I would mess around trying to machine the pad at #1 main for a S2 pickup.
The good part is you have lots of options!
Dave
You can ream this oil passage out (after you have ground it for clearance) and press in a piece of copper or brass tube. You can carefully peen the tube in the area you just ground out. This will allow you to use the pickup at #2 main. I had a nice S1 4.1 that was done this way.
I would consider the full Dutweiller system or the wet sump with a stock #2 pickup. I don't think I would mess around trying to machine the pad at #1 main for a S2 pickup.
The good part is you have lots of options!
Dave
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???
I have the Dutt pump. It is a hi vol gear pump that bolts onto the stock ft cover, uses an external pick up line, [-12] to a pick up in the bottom of the pan. The outlet line is -10, and goes to a remote filter, out of the filter, [-10] to the engine port at the top of the block.[Stage 2]
There's a -8 relief valve line required. I plumbed mine to a weld in fitting at the fuel pump block off plate. This puts relief oil onto the timing chain, then back into the ft of the pan.
The pump is driven just like a stocker pump.
The psi is externally adjustable.
I have 30# hot at idle and 80# at 6000....
I have the Dutt pump. It is a hi vol gear pump that bolts onto the stock ft cover, uses an external pick up line, [-12] to a pick up in the bottom of the pan. The outlet line is -10, and goes to a remote filter, out of the filter, [-10] to the engine port at the top of the block.[Stage 2]
There's a -8 relief valve line required. I plumbed mine to a weld in fitting at the fuel pump block off plate. This puts relief oil onto the timing chain, then back into the ft of the pan.
The pump is driven just like a stocker pump.
The psi is externally adjustable.
I have 30# hot at idle and 80# at 6000....
Re: ???
Thanks Chuck for the details!!!!!!!!
I was hoping the idle pressure could be a bit better. Still haven't decided between this or a dry sump system (great pressure and volume) across the board (from what I'm told).
Originally posted by Chuck Leeper
I have the Dutt pump. It is a hi vol gear pump that bolts onto the stock ft cover, uses an external pick up line, [-12] to a pick up in the bottom of the pan. The outlet line is -10, and goes to a remote filter, out of the filter, [-10] to the engine port at the top of the block.[Stage 2]
There's a -8 relief valve line required. I plumbed mine to a weld in fitting at the fuel pump block off plate. This puts relief oil onto the timing chain, then back into the ft of the pan.
The pump is driven just like a stocker pump.
The psi is externally adjustable.
I have 30# hot at idle and 80# at 6000....
Thanks Chuck for the details!!!!!!!!
I was hoping the idle pressure could be a bit better. Still haven't decided between this or a dry sump system (great pressure and volume) across the board (from what I'm told).
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Re: Re: ???
I find psi at idle to be more than plenty! W/ the engine at zero load, there's not much need for more.
We have the dry sump on the NA odd fire in the COBRA, and it's AWSUM!! Problem is, it's so efficient, that we had to block off the oil cooler to get the oil temp up where it should be. The temps were waaay too low for good lube flow...
Turn it 8500 NP!! 
I find psi at idle to be more than plenty!
W/ the engine at zero load, there's not much need for more.We have the dry sump on the NA odd fire in the COBRA, and it's AWSUM!! Problem is, it's so efficient, that we had to block off the oil cooler to get the oil temp up where it should be. The temps were waaay too low for good lube flow...
Turn it 8500 NP!!
Is the relief valve built into the Duttweiler cover (like the stock cover)? Or is it external? If external, where can the relief valve be purchased? I'd prefer an adjustable, proportional relief valve. I've seen the Peterson valves and would like to find one a bit less expensive, if possible.
Thanks,
Buzz White in Houston, TX
Thanks,
Buzz White in Houston, TX
Richard Lee developed this setup and you can give hime a call at 909-674-8171. It is best to call Richard around 9:00am (Pacific time). He ships all over the world but he is not as public friendly as Kenny, so he might not be setup to take credit cards. Richard perfers to stay in the background and let others market his products like the oil plate. If you have problems, let me know and maybe I can get the plate for you(I live about 5 miles from Lee Performance) and have it shipped. I think the cost is about $200.
Good Luck,
Jeff
turbodave231
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I still have a question about the Dutweiller setup. Does is still use the extended H.V. gears running inside the cover? ? or is it a completely different pump?
Seems to me someone ought to be able to design a bolt-on gerotor style pump that would mount to a stock front cover and still drive off the cam. A properly sized gerotor would eliminate oil volume/pressure problems with the stock pump.
Seems to me someone ought to be able to design a bolt-on gerotor style pump that would mount to a stock front cover and still drive off the cam. A properly sized gerotor would eliminate oil volume/pressure problems with the stock pump.
That's my question. Is the Dutweiller system just a fancy plate with AN fittings to route the oil externally?? or does it have it's own gears, etc.??? But I think Chuck sorta answered that question above. As I read his post, you get a new hi volume gear set, plus the pump housing/hardware.
I'm still leaning towards a dry sump system, but would rather not. If the Dutweiller system could in fact supply ENOUGH volume at idle, then fine. These blocks I have have a rather unique oiling system and the one thing I don't want to happen is run low on volume at lower rpm and especially at the higher rpm this engine will eventually be twisting (8,000).
Ok now Im confused again. The alum. block bolts to where the oil filter adapter goes on. do you have to block off the original passage to the pickup? If the pump picks up off the side of the pan using a hose,is there a pickup on that end or just a hole in the pan? Is there a gain to using this style pump if going with a stock crank,better oiling?
Originally posted by norbs
You must use a stock front cover, not HV. Heres a pic i found.
Not HV?? I wonder why that is? This system was obviosly conceived to make life easier on SII projects (eliminating dry sump systems). Wouldn't you want a high volume set of gears, etc.?
Maybe I'm confused about the difference between a stock front cover and a HV front cover
Adding high volume to the stock front cover requires deeper gears, spacer plate and new fasteners.
Does the HV front cover have a deeper pump housing (eliminating the need for the spacer plate)???
And are those gears pictured in the Dut. system, the deeper HV gears?
Dave, if you look at the picture you will see a pocket in the plate that would house part of the taller gears. This "pocket" takes the place of a spacer. Also you do not have the option of using stock gears with this setup. On my stage 1 I used the stock pickup and blocked off the external pickup on the plate (the port at the far end of the plate away from the adjusting screw).
Jeff
Jeff
