propane with boost?

[cowboydan]

as far as i know propane is high octane (higher than 91 octane). if knock is the enemy, this should help? it's octane level is a big reason for power loss but with boost, you are retarding 4deg for every lb of boost anyway. i could advance the timing a bit more and run more boost. i can buy propane for .60c/L the one thing i really don't understand is that propane burns hotter, but has less energy? i think the theory of less energy is a higher flash point and a slower burn. if not.... it burnes cleaner...lol

 

[Slow91z]

It's been done there used to be a company selling kits to do it, but alky has proven to be way more popular.

 

[Bill_Ritter]

Alky is the better way to go. I had a propain kit for years and made the switch to Alky a few months ago. Propane, IMO, is harder to tune because of not being able to maintain a constant bottle pressure with changes in temp and after passes. I can't say it didn't work, because it did, but Alky is clearly the better way to go.

 

[muchilus]

propane injection

hi,

I'm personal dedicated to convert gasoline engines to LPG / CNG. yes you are right LPG is higher octane rate, the minimum is 100octane and maximum 105 octane.

LPG is a clean green fuel, and had a lot more advantages over the gasoline.

No carbon deposits on the cylinder chamber.
Prolong the life of the engine oil because do not produce particules.
Less wear and internal noise.

depend of the mixture to propane/butane , you can take more BTU power.

of course LPG has less BTU power

Premium Gasoline (91 octane) 125,000 btu
Regular Gasoline (87 octane) 115,000 btu
LPG 60/40 (100 octane) 96,000 btu
LPG 70/30 (105 octane) 95,000 btu
CNG 90/10 1mt3 (125 octane) 36,000btu
CNG equivalent to a 1 galllon of gasoline is 3.57 mt3.


due the lowest energy content you will get less gas mileage that gasoline, but normally LPG has twice the price lowest. so the savings are on the price.

If you get equipped with a high end propane injection system totally computerized (TARTARINI SPA) you can get 10% less gas mileage by a gallon of LPG compare to gasoline. with no lost power. with natural gas you lose 10-15% of power due the big lack of BTU POWER.

i had convert up to 500hp aspired engines, and 350hp turbo charge vehicles. i'm working on my project that is a grand national, after i finish with the tune up on gasoline, i'm going to use on propane.

Tartarini Auto Industries - Gas Equipments
Autotecnigas - Sistema Secuencial de Inyección de 5 Generación TARTARINI GLP/GNP (my company)
www.facebook.com/autotecnigas

as far as i know propane is high octane (higher than 91 octane). if knock is the enemy, this should help? it's octane level is a big reason for power loss but with boost, you are retarding 4deg for every lb of boost anyway. i could advance the timing a bit more and run more boost. i can buy propane for .60c/L the one thing i really don't understand is that propane burns hotter, but has less energy? i think the theory of less energy is a higher flash point and a slower burn. if not.... it burnes cleaner...lol

as far as i know propane is high octane (higher than 91 octane). if knock is the enemy, this should help? it's octane level is a big reason for power loss but with boost, you are retarding 4deg for every lb of boost anyway. i could advance the timing a bit more and run more boost. i can buy propane for .60c/L the one thing i really don't understand is that propane burns hotter, but has less energy? i think the theory of less energy is a higher flash point and a slower burn. if not.... it burnes cleaner...lol

 

[Grumpy]

Alky is the better way to go. I had a propain kit for years and made the switch to Alky a few months ago. Propane, IMO, is harder to tune because of not being able to maintain a constant bottle pressure with changes in temp and after passes. I can't say it didn't work, because it did, but Alky is clearly the better way to go.

X2 .. Been there an done it !! Never looked back! leave the propane for BBQ'n

 

[JP112_89]

X2 .. Been there an done it !! Never looked back! leave the propane for BBQ'n

lol

 

[cowboydan]

i have not worked that much with propane for racing, but it does nicely for off-roading. but one thing i think people miss is that basic propane systems work well after the cooling system gets hot. lpg has less less energy and less btu. but it does have an advantage that i would like to think about. i'm talking about it's temperature apon release (expansion). nirtous oxide has the very same property. it is extremely cold. so if i made a multiport injection system that wasn't assosiated with hot coolant for vaporization, i could use propanes' high knock resistance and it's super cooling to mix with air fuel ratio? i haven't looked at it that hard, just thinking based on those 2 points, it may be worth a second look. i could add more timing, get a cooler air charge, and do it all at .599c/L. if you can use a bottle warmer on a nitrous bottle, i bet i could do the same for a lpg tank to keep the pressure more consistant? i'm just thinking out loud i guess you could call it...lol

 

[Slow91z]

Alky is super cold, probably the best cooling properties of anything discussed in this thread.

Basically consider an alky kit or converting to E85, anything else is a waste of time.

There's a reason lots of race cars run on alky and forklifts run on propane.

 

[motorhead]

What would you like to know?

From my personal experience I've been as high as 30psi of boost on a stock 3.8L using propane (via the old OGS Propain kit) with ~18* of ignition advance. Recently I've added alcohol injection (pushing E85) on top of this to further increase the timing.

Propane works, and works well. When introduced it was a good stop-gap between non-progressive and progressive alcohol kits as it didn't flood the motor the way a non-progressive alcohol kit can. The recent advancements alcohol injection systems has made up the difference and obviously had greater advantages over propane which is volume limited by comparison.

Saying that you "can't" regulate tank pressure is a lie. Most people just couldn't be bothered to figure it out. I simply added a nitrous bottle heater to the mix and cold weather issues are now non-existant. But, most folks don't like to think or do for themselves around here.

Oh and I have nitrous waiting in the wings too...

 

[Bill_Ritter]

Saying that you "can't" regulate tank pressure is a lie. Most people just couldn't be bothered to figure it out. I simply added a nitrous bottle heater to the mix and cold weather issues are now non-existant. But, most folks don't like to think or do for themselves around here.
...

I too had an OGS kit (as mentioned above), and used a bottle warmer setup from our drag car. It worked "OK" but I was never happy with it. The bottle pressure never recovered quite as quickly as I'd like for it to have. I even went to a larger grill sized tank to see if it would help, but never got it quite right. After years of tinkering with it here and there in my free time, I just got rid of it and moved on to the progressive alky kit. The best I ever squeezed out of the propane was 26lbs of boost and 18* timing, with the alky I can run up to 30* with 21-23* timing and no knock.

No one has said it doesnt work, or that they weren't willing to take the initiative to think outside the box to adapt it to their climate. Its just that a progressive alky system is the easier, more efficient route to go.

Dont get me wrong, I loved my propain system... it was a great conversation piece at cruise-ins and worked well. But the progressive alky system is where its at!

 

[motorhead]

I too had an OGS kit (as mentioned above), and used a bottle warmer setup from our drag car. It worked "OK" but I was never happy with it. The bottle pressure never recovered quite as quickly as I'd like for it to have. I even went to a larger grill sized tank to see if it would help, but never got it quite right. After years of tinkering with it here and there in my free time, I just got rid of it and moved on to the progressive alky kit. The best I ever squeezed out of the propane was 26lbs of boost and 18* timing, with the alky I can run up to 30* with 21-23* timing and no knock.

You probably should have mentioned this in your first reply. It definitely would have changed the tone of mine. FWIW, I am at 27psi and 25* timing on propane and alky. They seem to be playing well together.

No one has said it doesnt work, or that they weren't willing to take the initiative to think outside the box to adapt it to their climate. Its just that a progressive alky system is the easier, more efficient route to go.

Agreed, but they have to identify themselves if they are trying things; also agreed on the benefits of a progressive alky kit. However, I am not in a position to dump more money into octane boosters for this car at this time.

Dont get me wrong, I loved my propain system... it was a great conversation piece at cruise-ins and worked well.

That it is.

I'd hazard to guess that Jay Carter is still pleased to see a few of these systems running.

 

[Bill_Ritter]

Here is what my setup looked like before I took it off. you can see the bottle warmer strapped around the middle

Edit: yes, that was my real plate too!!! haha

 

[Bill_Ritter]

Alky is the better way to go. I had a propain kit for years and made the switch to Alky a few months ago. ..

You probably should have mentioned this in your first reply. It definitely would have changed the tone of mine..

I did! LOL:biggrin:

I'd hazard to guess that Jay Carter is still pleased to see a few of these systems running.

A board member on here bought mine, so its still being used for all I know.

 

[JayC]

I'd hazard to guess that Jay Carter is still pleased to see a few of these systems running.

More or less thats true. Sadly that system never became what it could have due to people pushing their own agenda but thats just the way it goes.

Ive learned with the ISAC that being ahead of the curve isnt always a good thing.

 

[cowboydan]

thanks to all.
i was helping a friend of mine change both of his filters on his propane system. but finding replacements was a challenge. i did however find a guy that was developing a new electronic/cpu propane system. i am considering this way because i have a conversion system already in one of my trucks. i live in a cold climate but it's not like i would drive my car in the winter anyway. the only thing i know for sure is that i don't want this draw through carb setup. the thought of trying to tune a carb is painfull when i know it can't be intercooled. i don't have a real desire to run "hot air". not sure why but i have a much better feel for sfi. no matter what fuel i burn, intercooling is necasary. i'm going to get back in touch with this propane guy, his kit really isn't that expensive. there is also a hydro system that i really want to look into also. hmmm i like the sound of racing with water!? more research is needed...lol

 

[JayC]

thanks to all.
i was helping a friend of mine change both of his filters on his propane system. but finding replacements was a challenge. i did however find a guy that was developing a new electronic/cpu propane system. i am considering this way because i have a conversion system already in one of my trucks. i live in a cold climate but it's not like i would drive my car in the winter anyway. the only thing i know for sure is that i don't want this draw through carb setup. the thought of trying to tune a carb is painfull when i know it can't be intercooled. i don't have a real desire to run "hot air". not sure why but i have a much better feel for sfi. no matter what fuel i burn, intercooling is necasary. i'm going to get back in touch with this propane guy, his kit really isn't that expensive. there is also a hydro system that i really want to look into also. hmmm i like the sound of racing with water!? more research is needed...lol

Im pretty sure Ive seen the kit you are referring to and its nothing like what youre trying to do.

 

[cowboydan]

yea, i know. it is a conversion system. i can't advance the timing any more than what gas would support. but i can get a mixer and vaporizor that would run on propane only. i have had great success off roading with this setup. as for preformance, and a draw through mixer set up, i could in theory add more timing over a gasoline carb and therefor produce more power than a stock 170hp. i don't drive the car everyday but when i do, atleast i could afford to fill the tank. i like that propane is clean burning, high octane (more boost).

when someone says that propane has less energy, one could put into theory that a gas racing application utilizes less than 80% of it's total energy because at wot rich is better but wastefull. hard to say which is best. on it's best day a gas engine is around 93%-95% efficient, propane has around 90% of the energy that gas has/lb. so really, as far as which has the most energy... i don't think it really matters. propane engines suffer a loss, but gas engines throw power out the tailpipe.... hmmm. still thinking...

running a couple bbq tanks and a nitrous tank in the middle sounds like a good sleeper combo, less weight than a tank of gas. i wonder if i could set up a mixer as a blow through setup?

 

[JayC]

We had several people that bought the kits to run with nitrous. They would replace the gas side with propane in the "wet" system and inject propane and nitrous.

 

[cowboydan]

that sounds a bit complicated. how about just propane and nitrous. if i understand you correctly, these guys were using gas primarily, then adding propane and nitrous as a wet kit. one question though, how was the propane injected. the propane needs to be vaporized? i like the sound of injecting propane directly along with nitrous, but i'm curious as to how the injection process would work for this set up.

 

[JayC]

that sounds a bit complicated. how about just propane and nitrous. if i understand you correctly, these guys were using gas primarily, then adding propane and nitrous as a wet kit. one question though, how was the propane injected. the propane needs to be vaporized? i like the sound of injecting propane directly along with nitrous, but i'm curious as to how the injection process would work for this set up.

Why is it complicated? Remove gas line, install propane line. Propane boils at like 60 degrees or so so its already vapor when it comes out.