Rear Downforce Wing

[HOT ROD-GN]

X2 I think the man should work for N.A.S.A space center.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[HOT ROD-GN]

x2 i think the man should work for n.a.s.a space center.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

i agree and him picking up only 1mph less than tso from 330' to 1320' is a useless comparison imo. For one tso is at the edge of breaking traction throughout the entire first 330 and probably a little more which will give it a much better mph early on and then they are dealing with a lot more wind drag at 175mph vs. 155. They are also running a turbo/hp that will have a much higher backpressure than don's setup so in reality the tso mph isnt a true indication of what power the engine can make if they had no restriction on turbos.

x2

 

[Otto J]

his 8 sec buick V6 WITH A POWERGLIDE seemd to work pretty good,
maybe we need to rethink our thoughts on that?

"pretty good" doesnt mean its working at is potential.
Quite a few of the 10.5 outlaw racers have actually gone back to 400s.
hmm wonder why

 

[turboc87gn]

Listen to S2V6 ive seen his car in person and it runs straighter than a jehovahs witness after a keg party!!!! Like a bat outta hell

 

[baadgn]

his 8 sec buick V6 WITH A POWERGLIDE seemd to work pretty good,
maybe we need to rethink our thoughts on that?

Im pretty sure what Ted meant was that putting a powerglide in a car that wont accelerate to the 330 and is running a T400 now is a BAD MOVE.

 

[cruzn57]

you decide......

YouTube - Irwindale wheelie 5.54@128

235 ci in, 3000lbs, 1.78 1st gear, 3.50 rear gear

Donnie's times are from a ZERO lb launch, NO BOOST ON LAUNCH, ( pro tree)
and a 2500 rpm converter!

 

[Alky V6]

I'm perfectly capable of working on two different problems at the same time.
The launch and 330 performance being one problem, and top end stability being the other. Even if the top end stability is related to the 330 performance, and a better fix of the 330 performance were to take care of the top end stability problem, a wing will not hurt a thing and can only help.

I don't understand why some of you are so against me using a wing? Why is that? Will it slow me down?

 

[Alky V6]

I agree and him picking up only 1mph less than TSO from 330' to 1320' is a useless comparison imo. For one TSO is at the edge of breaking traction throughout the entire first 330 and probably a little more which will give it a much better mph early on and then they are dealing with a lot more wind drag at 175mph vs. 155. They are also running a turbo/hp that will have a much higher backpressure than Don's setup so in reality the TSO mph isnt a true indication of what power the engine can make if they had no restriction on turbos.

Keep in mind my car doesn't even really begin to kick in until halfway between the 330' and 660' mark.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Don, it's your car and you can do whatever you want. I think the original question was will it help out and I think you can get the car to work at your power level very well without one.


You are going to have to get the car to kick in a lot sooner. That's the hard part.

 

[turbobuick]

Don, it's your car and you can do whatever you want. I think the original question was will it help out and I think you can get the car to work at your power level very well without one.


You are going to have to get the car to kick in a lot sooner. That's the hard part.

x2

Don, I think most of us want to see you go faster and we are just trying to help. You've gotten a few responses from guys running WELL over 165mph on small tires telling you its not really needed. Will it help maybe, will it hurt probably not. If you are putting it on because you have an issue with stability some of us think it'll be a band aid for other problems we are willing to help you sort though if you want. If your putting it on because it looks cool and you want one then go for it.

Back to the tire issue. A 29.5 stiff sidewall MT at 9.25 pressure may be to low and simply adding a pound of air may fix the problem. I would HIGHLY recommend tubes if you are not already using them. A high HP, heavy car with a small tire will often times need more tire pressure than usual. My last time out on slicks with a 28x10.5 stiff sidewall with tubes I was up to 16psi and it still was folding the tread and dancing all over the 330'. IMO this is one reason the DR works better on a car like this.

 

[Alky V6]

x2

Don, I think most of us want to see you go faster and we are just trying to help. You've gotten a few responses from guys running WELL over 165mph on small tires telling you its not really needed. Will it help maybe, will it hurt probably not. If you are putting it on because you have an issue with stability some of us think it'll be a band aid for other problems we are willing to help you sort though if you want. If your putting it on because it looks cool and you want one then go for it.

Back to the tire issue. A 29.5 stiff sidewall MT at 9.25 pressure may be to low and simply adding a pound of air may fix the problem. I would HIGHLY recommend tubes if you are not already using them. A high HP, heavy car with a small tire will often times need more tire pressure than usual. My last time out on slicks with a 28x10.5 stiff sidewall with tubes I was up to 16psi and it still was folding the tread and dancing all over the 330'. IMO this is one reason the DR works better on a car like this.

I do appreciate the help. I've gotten some very good suggestions here and from others that didn't want to get caught up in some of the drama here. A very big thanks to all.
I am running tubes. My tires are wrinkling very little with the present launch. That is why the low pressure. I normally run 9.75 psi, and really didn't notice any difference when I dropped to 9.25 in an effort to get the sidewall height to drop a little at the launch. I will try 10.25 like you suggested. The next time out will be with the 365 shot also.

There are quite a few racers that run wings in the low to mid sixes range at our track. That would be 9.90s (Super Gas) for the 1/4 only fellas. These are bracket racers. They are also running big tires. My feeling is, the wing helps with consistency as does the large meats. The less chance that you're running on the edge of traction, the more consistent you can rely on your car being.
Another very important consideration is SAFETY. Really now, why would a person that figures he may be on the edge of traction continue to want to do so? Is it the thrill of tempting fate?

 

[Alky V6]

I personally witnessed a fella at the track change the attitude of his car from a handfull to a very consistent pleasure drive with changes in his wing. A mid 5 in the 1/8 car, but still, it was very impressive what the wing did for him. It's a big tire car also.
It was interesting to see how too much angle slowed the car down.

 

[Alky V6]

If his car doesn't hit full boost till after the 330' then there is more work to do before even thinking about a wing.

A glide is the worst thing he could do to the car PERIOD!!!!

I agree. I don't see how a PG would help.

 

[S2V6RACER]

I'm sure the wing won't hurt the car. As far as tempting fate, I have NEVER had issues keeping the car hooked up from the 330' on. I don't race at tracks that are not prepped well, we tempt fate by doing that. I'll leave it at my personal opinion is these cars look great the way they are (stock appearing) and seem to work well without the use of a wing, also surprise the specators when they see what happens. I hope you try a few things out first rather than everything at once so it's easier to figure out what made the biggest improvements.

 

[SGRIM]

With the aerodynamics of the TR I really can't see any car needing the wing in the 330...

Look at the TSO cars...

On our few test passes it was not an issue at all...

Maybe Stanley's crew or someone from Len's team will talk about any adjustments they made!

 

[Alky V6]

We'll see what the nitrous hit and tire pressure (10.25 psi) does first. After that, I'll perform the next list of changes one at a time so we can see what each change does to the performance.

Lower the front end a little and align the front end with a 2" rise to simulate actual running height.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/g-body-drag-car-alignment-settings.290592

Block off the grill area.
Extend the front air dam.
Block off the area at the base of the windshield.
Add sheet metal to under the rear (fuel tank area) to smooth escaping air flow.
Add a V-shaped ground effects air dam under the car. Like the one I discussed earlier.
Finally, a wing.

Does the order of changes look OK? If anyone thinks the order should be different, please put in your .02 cents and explain your reasoning.

This should be interesting.

 

[HighPSI]

I think the very first thing on your list should be to get the car to run the front half correctly. Once you do that, you probably won't need half the other stuff on your list.
You came in here and asked opinions about a wing. The general consensus is that you don't need one, but it appears you are still doing one? Have you ever even scaled the car? It seems like you had your mind made up before you asked.

 

[Alky V6]

I think the very first thing on your list should be to get the car to run the front half correctly. Once you do that, you probably won't need half the other stuff on your list.
You came in here and asked opinions about a wing. The general consensus is that you don't need one, but it appears you are still doing one? Have you ever even scaled the car? It seems like you had your mind made up before you asked.

Actually, if you start at the beginning of the thread, you will see that I originally asked opinions on wing design. Not on whether I needed one or not. Others elected to get into the need one, don't need one argument. And yes, my mind is pretty well set on putting one on.

You bring up a good point. I agree with you that improving the first half should help on the second half. That's why the n2o jetting is being changed first.
Scaling the car is another good point. I know someone that has a set of scales. I'll have to see if I can get him to help me out. I should probably wait until after I've lowered the front end though.

 

[HighPSI]

Now you're talking With your attention to detail, I can't beleive you haven't scaled the car yet. I know you like to share your information, so will be interested in what the numbers are.
Good luck with the wing design. Unfortunatly you probably won't get too much hands-on feedback, probably just theories.

 

[Alky V6]

I came across some interesting first hand experiences with wings.

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=135252.0