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Repair my TE-61 or switch to a new one?

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buicktom61

Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
160
Hello,
I own a 86 GN with some modification and live in Germany. I have a TE-61 which starts with blue smoke right after starting the hot engine. I checked the turbine and it has no radial play. It drive smooth this way. But it has axial play around 0,08". Seems to be to much.
What do you think about repair or change to another Turbo? What new turbo should be the best for my set up?
Thanks for your help.

Greetings from Germany
Thomas
 
If it smokes there is a good chance the return line is not flowing like it should. That is a pretty common problem.
 
Hi Thomas,

the group would need some more info from you....

what turbo oil return line setup are you using? OE GM style flex metal drain tube or one made from hose + AN adapters? if the latter, what size hose and does the adapter to the CHRA have same inside diameter. some have made their own drain line from smaller hose and chocked ID fittings only to realize the highly aerated oil draining from turbo won't flow. As Sweet6 noted above, check the ability of the oil to flow through the return line. Ironically, Bison recently posted about this on his shop's page - top video from June 16th. link below.


it is possible the turbine shaft piston ring or it's groove is not right and letting some oil pass by. but if only on a hot restart, have to address why oil is accumulating and not draining. are the crankcase breathers ok?

if the problem does not occur on a cold engine at startup, sounds like issue with oil draining from turbo as noted.

link below is to the GM service manual for 86-87. you may not have this in your files but good idea to have at your fingertips being halfway around the world from most turbo buick folks. each section is downloadable for use offline.

 
forgot to note journal bearing turbo axial play is 0.015" to 0.020" when moving one end only.

hope the issue is not in the valvetrain since the focus is a turbo related question.
 
forgot to note journal bearing turbo axial play is 0.015" to 0.020" when moving one end only.

hope the issue is not in the valvetrain since the focus is a turbo related question.
Hello Anthony,
Thanks for your response. I use a rubber hose with fittings for oil return. I bought it from GBodyparts some years ago. I saw the Bisons video some days ago and I will check the return.
The engine was rebuilt less than 2500 miles ago. I hope and think everything is okay with the engine. The engine smells always like it is burning some oil. But the big blue cloud appers only after start in hot condition.
I will check the axial play again tomorrow, but I think it is more than 0.020.
Thanks for the link to the elec. manual.

Greetings from Germany

Thomas
 
I’m following this post… Not to hijack, but I have a TE-62 and my car smokes on a hot start too. I think it’s valve seals but maybe it’s my turbo. I know the drain is good and it has a normal amount of play for a JB turbo
 
Hi Jaffer, yes, I remember you were working through this scenario. thought you narrowed down cause to exhaust guides worn.

Thomas, that rubber hose kit from Gilbert's store is a no start for me. the adapter from CHRA is 2-piece. it's a standard npt bolt on adapter but the second piece is an adapter to reduce to that hose id. that's a choke point as well as the rubber hose size itself over the length.

GM flex metal hose is about equal to a -10 hose. need all of that to drain the aerated oil. pic below is of that rubber hose kit. see the choke points from the step down adapter to that smaller id hose?
1688766470468.png


the bolt-on adapter is widely used with -10 hose and fittings. when another adapter is used for connection of smaller hose, I'd say that is a problem.

plenty of vendors or stores to get a repro GM drain line...Classic Industries, ThePartsPlace(website + ebay store); OPGI; Kirbans; to name a few...links below - you'd have to check what international shipping would be...



 
Hi Jaffer, yes, I remember you were working through this scenario. thought you narrowed down cause to exhaust guides worn.

Thomas, that rubber hose kit from Gilbert's store is a no start for me. the adapter from CHRA is 2-piece. it's a standard npt bolt on adapter but the second piece is an adapter to reduce to that hose id. that's a choke point as well as the rubber hose size itself over the length.

GM flex metal hose is about equal to a -10 hose. need all of that to drain the aerated oil. pic below is of that rubber hose kit. see the choke points from the step down adapter to that smaller id hose?
View attachment 394068

the bolt-on adapter is widely used with -10 hose and fittings. when another adapter is used for connection of smaller hose, I'd say that is a problem.

plenty of vendors or stores to get a repro GM drain line...Classic Industries, ThePartsPlace(website + ebay store); OPGI; Kirbans; to name a few...links below - you'd have to check what international shipping would be...



I will check it on Sunday. I still have the old drain in a box. I will check its condition. If it is good, I will use it again. Otherwise I buy a new one.
The other thing is the axial play of the turbine. Looks not good for me. Will check it, too. If it is bad should I rebuilt it or buy a new one? And what new style turbo will fit to my set-up and is more plug and play?
Thanks and greetings from Germany
Thomas
 
Couldn't wait until Sunday. Old drain ist okay and back in the car. Checked the turbo and axial play ist .042. It has a little radial play on the exhaust side, too.
Is there any vendor who sells parts to rebuild it by myself? Or is it better to buy a new? Another question: Does the stock oil line has something like a nozzle on the turbo side?

Greetings from Germany
Thomas
 
Took the intake housing apart and it looks like the turbo has more damage than I thought. Here are some photos. On the intake side you can see the gap (axial play) between the housing and the turbine wheel (last two photos).
 

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Well it looks like you found the issue of your blue cloud of smoke on start up. That wheel is toast being it made contact with the compressor cover. Being your in Germany you could try any local shop that works on turbo's and see what it would take to repair it and if it's even worth spending money on. There is a good chance your money ahead purchasing a new turbo by the time you repair that unit, but still worth checking on what it would take to repair it.

As Anthony P mentioned above in post #3 you could contact Bison's Performance and he could hook you up with a turbo. There are others like Work Turbo, PTE ect that all sell great units for our cars.
 
Hi Thomas, this^^^^. it's a gamechanger when either or both wheels have made contact. you will probably find the turbine wheel has back face wear contact with the "dog dish" heat shield. that said, most likely both wheels are toast. there are illustrations of such in section 6J of the GM service manual. what's not clear at this time is if there is wear to the comp cover backplate from the thrust collar. and how bad the contact grooves are to the comp cover.

Yes, there are "rebuild" kits for do-it-yourself projects when wheels are not damaged and a simple freshen-up is desired. Usually kits just contain standard size bearings, snap rings, std. 270* thrust brg, 4-piece carbon seal kit, thrust collar for comp wheel, thrust washer, and maybe some hardware and a clip for the wastegate actuator rod. if there was no wheel damage and perhaps the turbo was off-car and disassembled for cosmetic stuff ((re)coating turbine housing, bead blasting compressor housing, etc) then a major / minor kit from gpopshop could be an idea, but you're beyond that idea. for reference, see their site via link => G-Pop Shop

When you need a compressor wheel and most likely a turbine wheel, as mblum noted, cost to source is a consideration. getting another 60-1 compressor wheel and that turbine wheel is not a problem. A new bearing housing is readily available as are the internals. once assembled, that CHRA needs to be balanced as an assembly (VSR balancing) even though the wheel parts are balanced as individual components as new from Garrett.

some things to consider...wheel tech has greatly improved. new design MFS compressor wheels will yield better low end spooling than the old tech. And do you stick with a journal bearing unit or move to a ball bearing unit. Considering costs, maybe a wheel upgrade on a journal bearing unit would make sense.

One thing a DIY'er cannot do on their own is the 360* thrust bearing - conversion to dynamic seal (from 4-piece carbon seal) and supporting backplate to compressor cover. there is some machine work to make that adaptation to dynamic seal but it's guaranteed not to let oil pass to the compressor side like the 4-piece carbon seal can. Both Bison and Reed (Work) do this conversion automatically.

With Chopper closing the doors to Limit Engineering in Dec 2022, that leaves Bison, Reed, and PTE as noted. Patrick at PTE is a member here. with the contact to the compressor cover, I'm not sure that a scotchbrite pad can smooth out the concentric grooves caused by the wheel contact. so you might need some work done to that cover or a replacement. You have the turbine housing. If it's a Garrett .63 A/R, that is a great housing and not available new any more. Used housing from smaller turbos like factory cores are the source to be machined for the larger turbine wheel. The Garrett .63 housing is preferred over the PTE .63 housing for better spooling on a street car. Since you have at least the turbine housing, I'd consider sending turbine and compressor housing (considering picture diagnosis to both) to either Bison or Reed rather than buying a complete new unit from PTE. considering international shipping, perhaps the turbine housing could have both faces fly cut locally, if needed, blasted and refinished. something to discuss with Bison and Reed.

take a look at the youtube vids Reed has posted. let them serve as background for your conversations with both as you try to determine what wheel designs and CHRA type should be chosen for your setup. I figure you have at least a 2800 rpm stall converter for use with the old TE61. A conversation with both Bison and Reed about your complete powertrain and how the car is used might lead to a different turbo unit altogether for what you have. I expect there are plenty of turbo servicing shops in Germany....just not sure of their experience choosing something for a modified turbo Buick.

link to Work turbochargers => Work Turbochargers
link to Work Turbochargers on youtube=> https://www.youtube.com/@workturbo/videos

the couple of vid's Reed has on the 5857 discuss old tech vs new tech for compressor wheels and the changes to the turbine wheel styles. that is what I was referring to above regarding what wheel designs to choose.

If you already have experience with Bison, great. for anyone reading this in the future, hopefully I've covered enough to help find a solution.
 
found the pics I wanted to add in post #4 checking axial play from one end. hook the indentation on the nose of the turbine shaft at the compressor wheel nut. pull towards you and zero dial indicator. then push away noting reading. for journal bearing, looking to see 0.015" to 0.020" when moved from one end with expected bearing clearance of 0.003" to 0.006". do this 4X, rotating comp wheel 90* each time....looking for an odd reading that might be a collapsed or damaged piston ring on the hot side, etc. if wheels have made contact, no reason to do this. this was done on stock units showing no damage.
 

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Thank you Anthony P for your great information. I contacted Bison yesterday. He told me there no way to rebuild my TE-61. I have to go to a modern Garrett Turbo with a lot of modification on my hardware.
I take a look at Reeds link. Maybe he can help me with the rebuild or a more stock looking turbo with minor modifications.
I will let you know, which way I go.

Greetings from Germany
Thomas
 
I have a thought
Treat yourself to a new bb turbo and adapt to a new oil drain down leave the stock leaky warped one out of the equation 😉
 

Thats your TE-61 replacement right there
Wouldn’t you have to worry about boost creep with the gate mounted 90° to the exhaust flow like that? That looks like a sweet turbo either way..
 
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