Sequential Dual Fuel System.

[Turbo1dr]

Most of you probably have seen it already but I just seen this new forum and decided to post what fabrication I've done myself.

This is my Sequential Dual Fuel System I've fabricated using a Champion GN1 intake. It works flawlessly and allows me to conserve race gas while still allowing me to run 30psi of boost on the street. I run 87 octane when cruising and when I nail the throttle it switches over to race gas. It's totally automatic and you can't feel it switching over to race gas at all! If you're interested in knowing more about how it works and what I've done to fabricate it in detail click here---> Sequential Dual Fuel Injection System

 

[turbofabricator]

I've always liked that system you built! If you are using the stock placement injectors for the 87 octane and the upper injectors for the C-16, then you also have gained a boost in performance just in injector placement!!! It is better to have the injectors higher up in the runner at higher RPM and boost, but it is better for driveability to have the injectors lower at off throttle. Kinda like the Ferrari F1 sliding injector system. They had they're injectors on a sliding plate that would vary the injector placement based on RPM. Now they just run the injectors up in the plenum and run OVER 700psi fuel pressure. (now THAT is a power gain that the OEM is tapping into, now, with direct injection) Great job! Good thing you, me, and Donnie don't live close by, or we could put NASA out of business! Want to build a rocket?:biggrin:

 

[Alky V6]

I've always liked that system you built! If you are using the stock placement injectors for the 87 octane and the upper injectors for the C-16, then you also have gained a boost in performance just in injector placement!!! It is better to have the injectors higher up in the runner at higher RPM and boost, but it is better for driveability to have the injectors lower at off throttle. Kinda like the Ferrari F1 sliding injector system. They had they're injectors on a sliding plate that would vary the injector placement based on RPM. Now they just run the injectors up in the plenum and run OVER 700psi fuel pressure. (now THAT is a power gain that the OEM is tapping into, now, with direct injection) Great job! Good thing you, me, and Donnie don't live close by, or we could put NASA out of business! Want to build a rocket?:biggrin:

Ain't that the truth.
Very nice work.

 

[tttype]

nice clean job, most people wouldnt even notice it.
When people look at my projects & say " yah so what its stock " I smile.

 

[Hot Air]

I saw thge system last weekend at Charlotte Autofair and it is SLICK! Paint the dual fuel pressure regulators flat black and no one would be the wiser! Did he use one of the Champion's Race Intakes? He runs 87 octane in one system and race gas in the other (w/spare tire well tank).
Conrad
Hot Air

 

[GNBRETT]

So are you gonna market this? What will be the price? Will it work in other applications other then TR's?

 

[Turbo1dr]

So are you gonna market this? What will be the price? Will it work in other applications other then TR's?

I'm not going to market it.


Yes, it will work on other cars and with the stock computer as long as you have the same size injectors in both fuel rails. The system doesn't use the computer at all to automatically switch it so it will work with a stock computer or aftermarket unit. The computer will never know you have two fuel systems. In fact, all you'd need is a "race" chip from your favorite vendor in a stock computer.


Fuel injector wiring: The "power feed wire" from the injector (in the fuse panel) is routed through a dual contact/5 terminal relay. You can see in the wiring diagram that only one set of injectors are powered on when the engine is running. Once the boost activated switch reaches the desired boost level it grounds the relay and power is then routed to the other set of injectors (116) and turns off the other set (87). Once the boost level is above the set point of the pressure switch the race fuel is being injected in the engine. After you let off the throttle the boost drops below the set point of the boost pressure switch and then the power from the 116 injectors is returned to the 87 injectors and the engine will now be running on low octane fuel for cruising. If you don't want the system to operate in automatic switching mode all you have to do is to remove the boost pressure switch and install a manual toggle switch...BUT watch out when doing this...you might forget to flip the switch and get into high boost on 87 octane. This system DOES NOT KNOW WHAT BOOST LEVEL YOU ARE RUNNING so I'd recommend always having it set up in automatic mode...just to be safe.

Blocking diodes have to be used or it will pulse two injectors at a time on the same cylinder...and you don't want that to happen.

Fuel pump wiring: Two fuel pumps run anytime the engine is running....one in the stock 87 octane tank and one in the 116 octane tank. This way both fuel rails are already up to pressure when the system switches over to race fuel. For cars that doesn't need "double pumpers" only one fuel pump is needed on each tank. On higher HP cars like my Malibu I've got double pumpers with the second pump turning on at low boost...like 3psi. This will ensure that once the boost reaches high enough for the fuel system to switch over there will be enough fuel and enough volume there to maintain high boost pressure. IT's really a very simple design when looking at it on paper but complicated when it comes to fabricating it.

 

[Turbo1dr]

This system would also be great if you wanted to run both pump gas and E85. Just set up the second fuel system for E85 as usual. You would have to use larger injectors on the E85 side and have a "user selectable" (thumbnail... remember those) computer chip so you could just manually switch it to the E85 program when you wanted to run on the E85 tank. Or you could just swap out the chip manually in your computer.

I don't think you could have this type of system set up to switch automatically on the stock computer unless your favorite chip programmer could program a custom chip for you that would work with both pump gas at low boost and E85 at high boost. I know it would be possible with an aftermarket computer....just go to the VE tables and change them around right at the point where the system automatically switches over to E85. That's how I do it with mine since I run a set of 60lb and 84 lb injectors.

 

[GNBRETT]

So what type of problems have you run into so far? What has failed ever?

 

[Turbo1dr]

So what type of problems have you r`un into so far? What has failed ever?

The only problem I have is remembering to check the race fuel level because 5 gallons lasts so long since it's only injected under boost! Seriously, I've not had one problem and it's been on the car functioning since 2006. It's worked every time I've nailed the throttle. I have NEVER felt the car miss, pop, hiccup, surge or anything when the system switches...it's smooth as silk.

Check out this video of the car. The green light that lights up at 3lb of boost is my secondary fuel pump in the 116 tank. The next green light that lights up is when the dual fuel system switches over from 87 octane to 116. Everything is automatic....no adjustments other than tuning the car to run at the proper AFR.


BTW, this is a 70GTQ DBB turbo.

http://www.turbomalibu.com/videos/boost_lights.WMV

 

[GNBRETT]

So why would you not market it for sale? I'm sure quite a few people would have an interest.

 

[Hot Air]

T"ell us about the coil pack!
Conrad Carter
"Hot Air"

 

[Hot Air]

Tell us about the coil pack!
Conrad Carter
"Hot Air"

 

[Red C5]

Very nice work.

 

[Turbo1dr]

Tell us about the coil pack!
Conrad Carter
"Hot Air"

The delco style coil pack with the three replaceable coils can be bolted on a TR without any mods. You will have to get a mounting plate for the module/coil assembly from the salvage yard. Ignition module and coils come on 86-87 VIN3 engines. I can't remember what years the mounting plate come on.

As far as my particular coil pack...mine is from a 1995 Buick LeSabre. It uses the same type of coils but it is a different module than the TR. It's a "fast start" ignition module. Not interchangable with a TR unless you do the "fast start" ignition system conversion. http://www.turbomalibu.com/faststart.htm

 

[Adam Connell]

After seeing what you have done here, and learning a little bit about mechanical fuel injection systems this year I got to thinking...

Meth is an awesome fuel for boost... I would love to have a sequential system that runs meth instead of race gas.

What are your thoughts on running a secondary MFI system with meth? Something like an Enderle system?

I have actually given this very little thought so far, and I figured I would ask around first to get some ideas of where to start.

 

[Hot Air]

If you are going to use methanol as the only fuel while under boost, you will need some BIG injectors as the BTU value of methanol is 1/2 that of gasoline so it takes twice as much! So, you will need huge injedctors AND a fuel system to support them.
Conrad

 

[Adam Connell]

yeah thats why I want to use MFI for it. They use MFI a lot in very high HP drag/pulling/ WOT engines...

Top fuel cars run MFI... Monster trucks run MFI on methanol (1500+hp) Puller use it too... just about any one running a blower without a carb on top has MFI.

It's basically only used in high HP applications now, because it's not as fuel efficient as EFI. With EFI you can tailor your fuel curve for max power throughout the entire RPM range, but with MFI you have to make compromises and it works best when tuning for max power in a narrow RPM range.

MFI uses totally different parts than EFI, it's what came in between carbs and EFI. It works Flawlessly in WOT applications, that's why Im thinking it would work well here. It is also ridiculously easy to tune... it has "pills" or jets that change how much fuel the system gets. You choose your nozzles based on calculations, and then tune with the pills to get the system right.

I would more than likely have a 5 gallon cell in the back with all methanol rated fuel parts for the MFI setup.

The alky injection kits are basically a simple MFI system. This would basically be a HUGE alky kit.

 

[Hot Air]

If you can get it to work, you won't need an intercooler! You could lay a can of beer (or soda) on intake before a run and have a cold one when you get back to the pits. As you know, methanol is very corrosive!
Conrad

 

[Adam Connell]

If you can get it to work, you won't need an intercooler! You could lay a can of beer (or soda) on intake before a run and have a cold one when you get back to the pits. As you know, methanol is very corrosive!
Conrad

That right there is the entire basis for my wanting to do this! EZ Plumbing with a built in cooler haha!

Seriously though, I dont know why, but I personally have issues with intercoolers... No matter what I always seem to subconsciously trying to get rid of intercoolers! First it was pre turbo injection, then it was e85+ alky, and now I want to make an SDFI system... every one of these ideas involved eliminating the IC!

I have spoke with a few people today on this subject already, and it sounds like there are already similar one off systems out there working perfectly. They use constant flow nozzles along with pulse injectors,

The real issue is that in then event of a secondary fuel system failure, the engine would be TOAST... I need to figure out some sort of fail safe system possibly involving a fuel pressure "arming" switch, or low pressure warning tone/light to let me know to get out of it if the second system fails.